Discussion archives for Paper 6 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:47:34 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 6 - Short Questions To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal Re: SHORT QUESTIONS FOR PAPER 6 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It is 8 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time - 1300 GMT) on Friday, February 20. During the next 24 hours you may send SHORT QUESTIONS about Paper 6 - "Students' Response to the Use of Computer-Mediated Communication (CMC) for Teaching Chemistry" by Rosamaria Fong to the author and the conference participants. SHORT QUESTIONS are sent to clarify aspects of the paper, obtain more information from the author and/or conference participants and help to promote subsequent discussion. Answers to SHORT QUESTIONS will be sent at the beginning of the discussion on Monday, February 23 DISCUSSION of Paper 6 will begin on Monday, February 23 and continue ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ through Thursday, February 26. The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/Chemistry/ChemConference/ChemConf98/ Short Questions should be sent to CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU Please include the PAPER NUMBER, YOUR INITIALS AND THE TOPIC IN THE SUBJECT LINE, e.g. "Paper 6 - KL: CMC and Improvement of Problem Solving Skills" These messages will be received by the author AND the conference registrants. Please send ASCII only messages with no more than 72 characters per ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ line and no attachments. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ To send comments or questions privately to the author of the paper, send your message to the author's e-mail address given in the paper. Reports of typographical errors, spelling or grammatical errors should be sent directly to the author and not to CHEMCONF. [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:31:37 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 6 DR: SQ about Pre-Entry Program and Study Guide Some Short Questions for Paper 6 1. In you abstract you refer to the "pre-entry program" What exactly is the pre-entry program? 2. Under Student Responses you indicate: 64% of the students accessed the study guide 2 to 3 times a week 68% of the students spent 2 to 3 hours working through the problems a. Were these problems in the Study Guide or textbook? b. How much total time did these students spend on the course? 3. a. Do better students tend to use the Study Guide more or less than poorer students? b. Are there topics on examinations which are covered in the Study Guide but not in the textbook? c. Are there topics on examinations covered in the textbook but not in the Study Guide? Donlad Rosenthal Clarkson University Potsdam NY ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:35:14 -0500 From: George Long Subject: Paper 6 GRl: SQ about server logs, time per page Have you examined the server logs for students using the webpages ?? I have found that students access the pages frequently, but stay generally a very short time. So accessing a page may not be worth much. In general, people's average time on a webpage is much less than a minute, and I have found that students generally follow this. Also, it would be interesting to see if students followed any particular path through the information. -what topics gained attention, etc. **************************************************************************** Dr. George R. Long grlong@grove.iup.edu http://www.iup.edu/~grlong/ Department of Chemistry Indiana University of PA Indiana PA, 15705 **************************************************************************** [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:57:28 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: Paper 6 GRl: SQ about server logs, time per page Many students simply down load a page and dump it to print if the site is not interactive. The time on the page will be very short because they are doing the work off line. Walt > Dr. Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue WA 98007 > 425-641-2467 > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:00:22 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Paper 6 -WV-: RE server logs, time per page Many students simply down load a page and dump it to print if the site is not interactive. The time on the page will be very short because they are doing the work off line. Walt > Dr. Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue WA 98007 > 425-641-2467 > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:37:22 -0500 From: George Long Subject: Re: Paper 6 -WV-: RE server logs, time per page But even interactive pages can be accessed for a very short time. I am interested in the results for >this< "interactive" website (if available). **************************************************************************** Dr. George R. Long grlong@grove.iup.edu http://www.iup.edu/~grlong/ Department of Chemistry Indiana University of PA Indiana PA, 15705 **************************************************************************** Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:28:42 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Re: Paper 6 -RF - Answers to Short Questions Answers to Don Rosenthal's questions: 1. In your abstract you refer to the "pre-entry program". What exactly is the pre-entry program? The Academic Studies Division at BCIT offers the Engineering Technology Entry (ETE) program. This 15-week program is the pre-entry program that provides academic upgrading to students who wish to enroll in engineering-based technology programs at BCIT. The courses include: - Chemistry (Grade 11 equivalent), - Communication (Grade 12 equivalent) , - Mathematics, (Grade 12 equivalent) - Physics (Grade 11 equivalent), - computer literacy. At present, the following technology programs at BCIT require Chemistry: - Biomedical Engineering, - Biotechnology, - Chemical Sciences, - Mining, - Occupational Health and Safety, - Petroleum, - Plastics, - Renewable Resources Forestry - Renewable Resources Fish and Wildlife - Wood Products Manufacturing 2. Under Student Responses you indicate: 64% of the students accessed the study guide 2 to 3 times a week 68% of the students spent 2 to 3 hours working through the problems. (a) Were these problems in the Study Guide or textbook? (b) How much total time did these students spend on the course? At the end of each offering of CHEM 0010, students were asked to fill in an evaluation of the Web-based study guide. The evaluation was to find out whether students found the study guide useful, accessible, and easy to use. (a) The evaluation comes back with 68% of the students using the study guide 2 to 3 hours a week working through the problems which are in the study guide. (b) I do not know how much time these students spend on the course. It will be interesting to ask them what the percentage of their studying on the course was done using the study guide. 3. (a) Do better students tend to use the Study Guide more or less than poorer students? All of the students make use of the online assignments and interactive problems in the Study Guide as an on-going assessment of their understanding throughout the course. My impression is that the weaker students use the Study Guide more extensively than the better students. The Study Guide helps the weaker students to identify the areas in which they have difficulties. Typically, every week a student goes through a cycle: 1. try the interactive problems in the current unit for practice, 2. go to read the unit pages in the Study Guide to make sure they understand the concepts that are taught during lecture, 3. submit the online assignment for marks, 4. study the hints to previous online assignments to make sure the correct choices were made for the right reasons and to figure out what went wrong with the incorrect choices. Each question in the online assignments directs the student back to the unit and topic from which the question was taken. Going through this cycle helps some students to develop their study habit. (b) Are there topics on examinations which are covered in the Study Guide but not in the textbook? All the topics on examinations are covered in the Study Guide as well as in the textbook. Actually topic for topic, the textbook contains much more information than the Study Guide. But what the Study Guide seems to be able to do is to identify the learning outcomes and draw the student's attention to the key points. On the surface, the study guide repeats a lot of what is said in the lectures. But, by strategically hypertexting key words, students can click to go deeper into the subject. It's the student's choice to pursue the subject and not be overwhelmed with the pages of information in the textbook. Maybe this is the interactivity about the Web that you can't get with the textbook. (c) Are there topics on examinations covered in the textbook but not in the Study Guide? The Study Guide is a subset of the textbook. All the topics on examinations are from the Study Guide and, therefore, from the textbook as well. Answer to George Long's question: 1. Have you examined the server logs for students using the web pages? I look at the server logs every now and then to see how often students are logging onto the study guide. Identifying the activities on the study guide which belong to my students is not a problem because the student marks page (which is password protected) is accessed very frequently. It's difficult to conclude student's study habits just on server log information. Here is an example of the server logging web activities in a recent 50-minute tutorial. The tutorial took place in a computer lab. Each student had access to a computer. Ten students came to the tutorial, and eight students logged on the computers. Of the students who logged on, these were the logged activities during the tutorial. Student 1: 4 minutes reading unit content 3 minutes accessing course marks Student 2: 2 minutes browsing the study guide 2 minutes accessing course marks 1 minute post assignment Student 3: 16 minutes reading unit content 6 minutes on discussion board 17 minutes accessing the interactive problems Student 4: 2 minutes reading unit content 1 minute accessing course marks Student 5: 2 minutes accessing course marks 5 minutes post assignment Student 6: 2 minutes accessing course marks 1 minute on discussion board 1 minute accessing the periodic table Student 7: 13 minutes accessing unit content 13 minutes accessing the interactive problems 1 minute on discussion board Student 8: 4 minutes accessing assignment Although all the students stayed for the full duration, the server log indicated a fair amount of inactivity. Since I was at the tutorial, I know that everyone (including the 2 students who did not log on) was busy either working on their labs, correcting their assignments, or working on their assignments. From the server log alone, one could have only guessed at what went on during the inactive periods. I find that log activities usually gives the impression that students spend very little time on the site when in fact they may be working on something that is course-related off-line. Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:59:11 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 6 - Begin Discussion To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU Re: BEGIN DISCUSSION OF PAPER 6 It is 8 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time - 1300 GMT) on Monday, February 23. The next 96 hours will be devoted to discussion of Paper 6 - "Students' Response to the Use of Computer-Mediated Communication (CMC) for Teaching Chemistry" by Rosamaria Fong The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/Chemistry/ChemConference/ChemConf98/ Messages should be sent to CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU Please include: the PAPER NUMBER, YOUR INITIALS AND THE TOPIC IN THE SUBJECT LINE, e.g. "Paper 6 - KL: CMC and Improvement of Problem Solving Skills" These messages will be received by the author AND the conference registrants. Please send ASCII only messages with no more than 72 characters per ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ line and no attachments. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Appropriately labelled subject lines will be useful in sorting out the various discussion threads. Only discussion which is sent from the SAME MAIL ADDRESS from which you subscribed will be accepted and distributed to participants. 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To resume receipt of messages, send the message: SET CHEMCONF MAIL to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU Signing Off ^^^^^^^^^^^ In the event you wish to sign off CHEMCONF, please send the one line message: SIGNOFF CHEMCONF to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU Note that each of the above commands is sent to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD and NOT CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU --------------------------------------- SCHEDULE ^^^^^^^^ February 23 to 26 - Discussion of Paper 6 February 27 to Mar. 5 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 7 March 6 to 12 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 8 March 13 to 19 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 9 March 20 to 26 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 10 April 10 to 16 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 11 April 17 to 23 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 12 April 24 to May 15 - Evaluation and Discussion of Selected Topics If you need HELP, please send an e-mail message to: Tom O'Haver at to2@umail.umd.edu and NOT TO CHEMCONF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ======================================================================= [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:12:24 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: Paper 6 -RF - Answers to Short Questions [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Don Rosenthal asks several questions (>>) about how the Study Guide is used. I repeat a few, with responses (>) >> 2. Under Student Responses you indicate: >> 64% of the students accessed the study guide 2 to 3 times a week >> 68% of the students spent 2 to 3 hours working through the problems. >> (a) Were these problems in the Study Guide or textbook? > >(b) How much total time did these students spend on the course? > (a) The evaluation comes back with 68% of the students using the study guide 2 to 3 hours a week working through the problems which are in the study guide. > (b) I do not know how much time these students spend on the course. It will be interesting to ask them what the percentage of their studying on the course was done using the study guide. >> (b) Are there topics on examinations which are covered in the Study Guide but not in the textbook? > All the topics on examinations are covered in the Study Guide as well as in the textbook. My comment: It would seem to me that the online use would increase as a % of total time spent if the online practice problems were keyed specifically to the textbook problems and/or exam questions, and if in the process they received not just hints or "correct/incorrect answer" responses, but help in identifying where they were having difficulties in their solution. While most Study Guides have worked-out solutions to problems, these are of limited use because a student gets a false sense of confidence that once they see how the problem should be solved, they believe they will not repeat the same mistake on the test. I have developed the solution to this - and am presently exploring how it could be incorporated into the web-based Study Guide. Bert Ramsay, c3@BizServe.com http://www.BizServe.com/c3 [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:55:11 -0500 From: George Long Subject: Re: Paper 6 -RF - Answers to Short Questions > >Student 1: 4 minutes reading unit content > 3 minutes accessing course marks > >Student 2: 2 minutes browsing the study guide > 2 minutes accessing course marks > 1 minute post assignment > >Student 3: 16 minutes reading unit content > 6 minutes on discussion board > 17 minutes accessing the interactive problems > >Student 4: 2 minutes reading unit content > 1 minute accessing course marks > >Student 5: 2 minutes accessing course marks > 5 minutes post assignment > >Student 6: 2 minutes accessing course marks > 1 minute on discussion board > 1 minute accessing the periodic table > >Student 7: 13 minutes accessing unit content > 13 minutes accessing the interactive problems > 1 minute on discussion board > >Student 8: 4 minutes accessing assignment > >Although all the students stayed for the full duration, the server log >indicated a fair amount of inactivity. Since I was at the tutorial, I know >that everyone (including the 2 students who did not log on) was busy either >working on their labs, correcting their assignments, or working on their >assignments. From the server log alone, one could have only guessed at what >went on during the inactive periods. I find that log activities usually >gives the impression that students spend very little time on the site when >in fact they may be working on something that is course-related off-line. > The question has to do with using the number of times the study guide is accessed as an indicator of anything. Here we have 8 accesses, and 8 very different uses, But in the data you present, this would count as 8 accesses - all the same. This is important when you consider how much time and effort go into creating such a study guide. I, for one, want to be sure that the students are using what we create. although, I'd guess some students use the paper study guides, and even their text book very little. I wonder what the results would be if we could minitor textbook use as closely. **************************************************************************** Dr. George R. Long grlong@grove.iup.edu http://www.iup.edu/~grlong/ Department of Chemistry Indiana University of PA Indiana PA, 15705 **************************************************************************** [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:28:46 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6 - RF- Number of access George Long wrote: >The question has to do with using the number of times the study guide is >accessed as an indicator of anything. Here we have 8 accesses, and 8 very >different uses, But in the data you present, this would count as 8 >accesses - all the same. > >This is important when you consider how much time and effort go into >creating such a study guide. I, for one, want to be sure that the students >are using what we create. although, I'd guess some students use the paper >study guides, and even their text book very little. I wonder what the >results would be if we could minitor textbook use as closely. I usually put in a counter in the opening page of a web site just to keep track of the number of access to the site. Right now, I have 11 students taking my course. The study guide counter indicates a counter of 279 hits. This is the beginnining of the 8th week of a 15 week program. Roughly, this equates 3 hits/week/student. Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:51:30 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 6 - DR: Amount of Time Spent On-Line Rosamaria: While I have not had an opportunity to examine your Study Guide extensively, I do like it and can understand why your students have indicated they found it very helpful, easy to use and easy to navigate. I have another question: RE: TIME SPENT DURING EACH ON-LINE SESSION In your paper you indicate: > 64 % of the students accessed the study guide 2 to 3 times a week > 68 % of the students spent 2 to 3 hours working through the problems The above data suggest that they spend about an hour each time they sign on. Your summary of the server logs for the 8 students indicate they spent a total of 7, 5, 39, 3, 7, 4, 27 and 4 minutes signed on (?). Are the server data consistent with the one hour per session conclusion? Perhaps I don't understand what information the server log is providing. Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:27:58 -0800 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6 - RF Re: Amount of Time Spent On-Line Don Rosenthal wrote: >In your paper you indicate: > >> 64 % of the students accessed the study guide 2 to 3 times a week >> 68 % of the students spent 2 to 3 hours working through the problems >The above data suggest that they spend about an hour each time they sign on. > >Your summary of the server logs for the 8 students indicate they spent a >total of 7, 5, 39, 3, 7, 4, 27 and 4 minutes signed on (?). > >Are the server data consistent with the one hour per session conclusion? >Perhaps I don't understand what information the server log is providing. The server logs the activity of the web pages. If a student ask the server to display a web page, the server log will indicate the time at which the page was accessed and the bytes of information transferred. The server does not log the time that the user leaves the page. The student survey indicates that 64% of the students access the study guide 2 to 3 times a week. This could be for retrieving their course standing, turning in their assignments online, doing the interactive problems, or reading course material on the study guide. 68% of the students spend 2-3 hours working on the problems. I am quite pleased with this response. But this is not something that I could have extrapolated from server log itself. For example, a student may download a page of the problems and do them offline. My server log would indicate that a page of the problem has been accessed at a particular time and 'x' bytes of information was transferred. While that student may take 2 hours to work through that page off-line, my server log would indicate that a student accessed the page for only 1 minute (or less). I could put a counter on every page of the study guide to keep track of the number of access to each page in the study guide. Or, I could extract the number of access to each page from the server log. But the important information that I will be missing is what happens during the inactivity periods. Are the students still working on the problems, or have they logged off? British Columbia Institute of Technology Chemistry department Tel: (604)412-7438 rfong@bcit.bc.ca [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:09:41 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6 - RF- Number of access Some questions came to me privately and I thought I would post it to the conference to initiate some discussions. Does anyone have any similar experience with introducing other tools in their courses that were well received by students? >Do you have any comparisons of similar sections using the study guides >and just traditional methods? Do you know if both groups would spend >the same amount of time on average studying? >From my experience in teaching CHEM 0010 before the use of the study guide and after using the study guide, my students are spending much more on time studying Chemistry. My guess would be that students are spending 2-3 hours a week more on Chemistry because they are more focused on the subjects when they use the study guide. My impression with my students is that with the entire course presented to them right from the start, it gives them a sense of comfort and confidence that if they work at it, they will do well ... so they end up working at it more. >Are there any studies that show that students learn more efficiently >using the study guides? That is do students who spend 4 hours >studying gas laws ( I should be so lucky) using the study guides learn >more, better test scores for instance, than those who spend 4 hours >studying using just traditional methods? There isn't any studies done to show that students learn more efficiently this way. I know that since I've been using the study guide in my course, my students are getting better marks. They show more enthusiasm towards the subject. My experience from the last two years is that the borderline students benefit more than the better students. Somehow the Web medium attracts these students to come back to try to figure things out. One of the reasons that I wanted to try out the Web medium is because the Internet is available 24 hours a day. From that aspect alone, it makes me more available to my students. It's proven to be more efficient for me in that respect. If I can give each student one-on-one time help in their studies, I know they can do better on tests and learn more. I guess that's why some students retain private tutors. A web-based study guide is the next best thing to that one-on-one. Does anybody have any similar experience? >I'm wondering on the basis of some of my own work if something new >attracts students and they spend more time, which is great, but it >doesn't tell us if the new method used is more efficient. Something >that is only going to be new for awhile is not worth as much development >time as something which is actually more efficient and new. ... I agree with you. But I don't see the Web going away. Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:42:25 +0000 From: George Long Subject: Re: Paper 6 - RF- Number of access >One of the reasons that I wanted to try out the Web medium is because the >Internet is available 24 hours a day. From that aspect alone, it makes me >more available to my students. It's proven to be more efficient for me in >that respect. If I can give each student one-on-one time help in their >studies, I know they can do better on tests and learn more. I guess that's >why some students retain private tutors. A web-based study guide is the >next best thing to that one-on-one. Does anybody have any similar experience? > This is a wonderful and intriguing statement. The assumption here is that we put something of ourselves into the webpages, and that in this way, webpages, with their interactivity, differ from handing out a paper study guide. The whole problem is just crying out for some good AI. I guess thats why I'm interested in exactly how the students use the web study guide, what paths they take through the information, etc. Understanding this should help to create more efficient study guides. **************************************************************************** Dr. George R. Long grlong@grove.iup.edu http://www.iup.edu/~grlong/ Department of Chemistry Indiana University of PA Indiana PA, 15705 **************************************************************************** [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:11:35 EST From: Walt Volland Subject: Paper-6-WV- Re: Number of access I have to agree with Rosamaria, when she says the web isn't going to go away. It is a part of the culture and will only expand. If it provides an avenue to more success for our students then it should be used to its best advantage. This success might be the result of increased interest because of the medium used to in the classes but that is irrelevant. The positive effects are really what are important. Counting hits and length of time on a page is nice but is not a clear indicator of effort. The analogy would be to clock time spent by a student with his/her book open to one page in a text. The reasons for that page being open can only be inferred. Walt Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu luckybel@aol.com [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:36:09 -0700 From: Scott Donnelly Subject: Paper 6: sjd Response to Dr. Sauder's comments... First, my apologies to Dr. Fong for this email that strays from the discussion regarding her paper. Second, Deborah Sauder's previous global comments about the "failure" of traditional science education are incomplete. I would add in response to the failures that the successes of traditional science education are also all around us. Most of us participating would humbly state that we are just an average person who worked hard to obtain a professorship, senior research position in industry, etc. in a chosen discipline we developed a predominate interest in. Few of us would consider ourselves mega intelligent wunderkinds. So traditional science education (whatever that means...I'm still confused by the phrase but I guess it means how we, the non-GenXers, were taught) did us some good. It likely did others no good for whatever reason. Imagine that? No surprise there it's not 100% effective. I never got into Milton, Blake, Wordsworth, and other English literature giants even though I had a undeveloped interest in them (I took the course as an elective) and it was quite obvious that the professor had a GREAT enthusiasm for the English language. Other students enjoyed the Dickens (pun intended) out of the class. Was I or the others a statistical aberration? No. Was the professor's style at fault? No, because other students enjoyed it, learned from it, and thrived on it. Is traditional science education *completely* useless or a *complete* failure (seemingly the predominate opinion found in the literature)? No, because it works for some students. Is inquiry learning the BEST way to teach science? No, but it works for some students and in some cases may be the best approach to teaching a particular topic. If all chemical educators were to adopt inquiry learning would the general public still have difficulty in grasping or have an interest in knowing how science is involved in policy making? Yes. I asked a few students if they enjoy science. They do. Are they thinking about a career in science? No. Why? They have other interests that grab their attention and excite them more. A lack of student interest in science comparable to ours or even science/engineering majors does not necessarily mean that we, chemical educators, failed to reach them. Remember- we wax eloquent every week, in every J.Chem.Ed issue about different learning styles among students. Why is it so hard for some chemical educators to accept that some students (maybe even greater than 50% of the class!) may enjoy and learn from a "standard lecture"? Furthermore, to infer that the public's lack of understanding science in policy making or developing an interest in science is predicated to a *large degree* (my interpretation of Dr. Sauder's comment due to her enthusiastic response to Dr. Volland's previous comments) on the failure of traditional science education is a gross oversimplification of a multivariable topic. Exodus of qualified people (students?) from science because of the failure of traditional science education? A casuality? Maybe a correlation but a *major* cause I doubt it. There is a correlation between foot size and reading ability among children ages 4-10 (arbitrary minimum and maximum caps). But does a casuality exist between the two correlated variables? No. How do I teach? I use a lil' bit of this (inquiry based exercises), a lil' bit of that (groupwork exercises), and of course I do the dreaded lecture, i.e. I deliver information, a unilateral discussion of sorts. I don't use any one particular learning/teaching method predominately any more than I would bake cookies (yes, I bake) using only flour and expect to get chocolate chip cookies out of it. Also, in response the Dr. Sauder's comment that students no longer fall asleep in Hood College's general chemistry courses, I wish to reply that students do not fall asleep in my class either (even when I taught general chemistry at 6:30am one semester!!) and I don't use inquiry based teaching methodologies predominately. And they probably wouldn't fall asleep either if I changed to inquiry based methods. Good and effective teaching is heterogeneous in scope. Sometimes what works in teaching/learning one topic may not work when teaching/learning another. We also know that what worked for one topic a year ago in some class did not work for another set of students in the same class a year later. Just because the car engine stops running does not mean that there is no gas in the tank. Filling the tank with gas may not be the answer. Putting in new spark plugs may be the solution. The bottom line to this rambling email? In my experience there is no one best *general* way to teach or for students to learn. As soon as we understand that a particular teaching method may work somewhere with some set of students may not work as effectively elsewhere with another set of students, the sooner we can get around to discussing the more practical (the engineer in me is coming out) concerns of teaching such as what demos/labs/exercises etc. are out there that may help show some particular concept and possibly improve student learning, appreciation, and/or literacy of science. Cheers! Scott D. Scott Donnelly Email: aw_donnelly@awc.cc.az.us Department of Chemistry Phone: 520 344 7590 Arizona Western College Webpage: http://www.awc.cc.az.us/chem/ Yuma, AZ 85366-0929 "In education it is not enough to be aware that other people may try to fool you;it is more important to be aware of your own tendency to fool yourself." -Paul G. Hewitt [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:44:47 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6: RF - How to access the CHEM0010 study guide Thanks Tom for bringing this to my attention. A demonstration of my study guide can be accessed via the URL: http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/chemconf98/0010/ You can also access the study guide from the paper. It is about 1/2 way down the opening page. Also, at the top of all subsequent pages, whenever you see the red and white water molecule icon, just click on that. Rosamaria Fong Tom O'Haver wrote: >I wonder how many of the ChemConf participants realize that they >can actually view your entire Study Guide on-line? This >was not evident to me at first - and in fact I can't seem to >find the link that got me there in the first place. Perhaps >you should make the link to the study guide easier to find. >Or perhaps I have overlooked somethink obvious. British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:43:39 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: Paper-6-WV- Re: Number of access [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Walt Volland says: > Counting hits and length of time on a page is nice but is not a clear > indicator of effort. The analogy would be to clock time spent by a student > with his/her book open to one page in a text. The reasons for that page being open can only be inferred. ========== The "Learning Curve Monitor" that is part of my problem solving software with Personal Tutor does more than that: for each student, it keeps track of: 1) the number and types of incorrect answers, 2) the amount and type of help requested from the Personal Tutor, and 3) the time spent (completed or incomplete) on each problem ( and, of course, the number of problems worked on. ====== thus it would take care of the common experience when the student comes into your office and says: "I spent HOURS studying (on the web study guide?) for this exam! I don't understand why I missed so many questions." Bert Ramsay, http://www.BizServe.com/c3 [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:50:03 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: Paper 6 - RF- Number of access [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Rosamaria says: >> If I can give each student one-on-one time help in their > >studies, I know they can do better on tests and learn more. I guess that's why some students retain private tutors. A web-based study guide is the > >next best thing to that one-on-one. Does anybody have any similar > experience? > > To which George Long responds: > This is a wonderful and intriguing statement. The assumption here is that we put something of ourselves into the webpages, and that in this way, webpages, with their interactivity, differ from handing out a paper study guide. The whole problem is just crying out for some good AI. I guess thats why I'm interested in exactly how the students use the web study guide, what paths they take through the information, etc. Understanding this should help to create more efficient study guides. ==== You can add my Personal Tutor to the web study guide as per message sent a few minutes ago. Bert Ramsay [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:06:29 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper-6 - RF -Sharing of Tools I have set up two example tools that you can try over the Internet. This two tools that were developed to achieve user interactivity: online testing and the display of marks. 1. Online testing is a multiple-choice/numerical input type of test. Upon submission of the test, students instantly get their scores and a set of hints that guide them to the correct answer. Students find this gratifying when they get high scores. When they get low scores, they get alarmed. Before they have a chance to put the books down, they usually are curious enough to have another look at where they went wrong. So, it captivates their attention just a little longer. 2. The display of marks is another tool that students find useful because they can monitor their progress in the course. It's an up-to-date histogram display of the individual's marks as well as the class's marks. In a way, it's a marks manager for me and I don't have to do spreadsheet at the end of the term. You can try these two tools in the study guide (URL: http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/chemconf98/0010/). Start the study guide by clicking on the button "CHEM 0010 study guide" on the bottom of the opening page. To try the online tests, I've set up some online assignments for demonstration. Click on the "Access Assignments" button on the button bar. Submit the assignments online and see the display of your score for the assignment by clicking on the Marks Distribution icon. The display of marks is generated on-the-fly. The program that makes this works calculates the average and display the scores of all submission in a histogram display. So ... what does all this have to do with you? If this is in-line with what you are doing and you like this concept of adding an interactive to your existing web site, feel free to e-mail me. I'd be delighted to share the use of these tools with you for free. How to get this to work for you will require some technical configurations from your end. If you'd like to have your technical people to contact me, we can work on this together. Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:43:24 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6 - RF-Re: Number of access The conference may be interested in these questions/comments that were directed to me privately. >I did develop programs (not web based) which provided many problems to work on >with a multilevel tutor which helps with each problem, and simulations and >animations as appropriate. I found students who spent 4 or more hours using >the programs earned about 1.8 to 2.4 grades better on tests. I started using >some these programs 7 years ago. I'm finding fewer students using the programs >over time despite the benefits, which have continued for users. I've also >come to the conclusion that if students spent the additional 4 hours with >their textbook, or lecture notes, or a study guide they would also do better >on tests. I haven't conducted any controlled studies on how much my students improve when they use the study guide. Any suggestions as to how it could be set up so that the I can draw unbiased conclusions from the data? I dug up my marks folder and these are the class average from each offering. I've taught this course 5 times. I'd say the enrolment is about 10 students per offering of the course. 1993 summer 65% (traditional method of teaching) 1994 summer 66% (traditional method of teaching) 1996 winter 73% (traditional method + study guide) 1996 summer 70% (traditional method + study guide) 1997 summer 78% (traditional method + study guide) The summer of 1997 was the first time that I implemented the weekly online assignments. I feel that students are benefitting the most from these online exercises. You're right, if students are willing to spend more time with textbook, or lecture notes they'd probably do just as well ... but they don't. My experience is that my students are willing to spend the extra time when the course is on a screen in front of them. Why? ... I don't know. >I've found that the stronger students tend to use the material more. They >liked using the tutorial a few times since in a three step problem it saved a >lot of the time spent experimenting- check the answer, try again. I've often >wondered, though they learn how to do a given type of problem more quickly, >how does this affect their general problem solving ability? > >Many other variables exist. I'm looking for the most efficient way a spending >limited time and resources. Are there particular parts of your study guide >which appear to be especially effective? > Interesting ... I am finding that the stronger students use the study guide less extensively than the weaker students. All of the students use the weekly online assignments to gauge their understanding of the course. With the stronger students, the hints that the online assignments alone seem to be enough to guide them to the correct answer. These students tend to use the study guide prior to tests and the final exam. With the weaker students, it's an iterative process. They go through the online assignments and find that they don't fully understand the hints to the questions. They will go to the pages of the site and/or textbook to do more reading on the subject and resubmit until they get it. The online testing and the online display of marks are the most effective tools. The up-to-date display of marks makes the students more aware of how he/she is doing in the course. If it were not for the Web access, I sure don't have the time to do up each student's mark and the class average on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. > >>My impression with my students is that with the >>entire course presented to them right from the start, it gives them a sense >>of comfort and confidence that if they work at it, they will do well ... so >>they end up working at it more. > >Why is this different than handing out a syllabus? Could you explain this a >bit more? > I don't usually hand out a syllabus. I usually give my student a 2-3 page course outline at the beginning of the term. This is the same course outline that you can access on the demo site (URL: http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/chemconf98/0010) opening page. I know that if I give more than 3 pages, they are not interested. With the presentation on the Web, I can go into details on a subject by making the pages for that subject deeper and deeper. They don't get to see the "pages" behind the screen unless they click on the hypertext. When they are ready to pursue a subject, they actively click to retrieve the information bit by bit and not all at once. Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:38:46 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6: RF - Textbooks going online Last week I had an opportunity to talk to a representative from McGraw-Hill. I was told that their best-selling textbook by Chang has an accompanying Web-based study guide. I have not seen the study guide. Has anyone heard, seen or used this study guide? Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:41:55 EST From: Walt Volland Subject: Re: -WV- Paper 6: RF - Textbooks going online Yes I have, and what they have done is put the paper copy on the web with interactive multiple choice drill questions. They are in the midst of putting the package together as they market it. It is not a completed work right now. The study guide was much like an electronic book. It kept the scores for the practice quizzes. It had features like those at BCIT. It looked interesting but we already have all the same options on our own system at BCC. I know there are other packages coming on the market soon. So shop around before making a commitment. Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:50:33 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Last Day For Discussion of Paper 6 To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU Re: LAST DAY FOR DISCUSSION OF PAPER 6 It is 8 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time - 1300 GMT) on Thursday, February 26 This is the last day for discussion of Paper 6 - "Students' Response to the Use of Computer-Mediated Communication (CMC) for Teaching Chemistry" by Rosamaria Fong Consideration of Paper 7 will begin at 8 AM EST tomorrow - Friday, February 27. [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:06:57 -0600 From: Carolyn Judd Subject: 6 - exams Rosamaria, I am very impressed with the quality of your web pages for your students. Are your major exams also given over the web? Have you seen or suspected that a problem arises when instruction is in one medium (the computer) and examinations are in another (paper and pen)? Carolyn Judd Houston Community College cjudd@tenet.edu [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:17:11 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: Paper 6: RF - Textbooks going online [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Rosamaria Fong asks: > Last week I had an opportunity to talk to a representative from McGraw-Hill. > I was told that their best-selling textbook by Chang has an accompanying > Web-based study guide. I have not seen the study guide. Has anyone heard, > seen or used this study guide? === I have been talking with WcB/McGraw-Hill for some time about incorporating CHEMiCALC into their software. Still talking. I should mention that a number of web-based products have appeared in the last year. E.g. "The Chemistry Place" from Peregrine Publications comes to mind. Bert Ramsay [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:28:02 -0500 From: Jimmy Reeves Subject: Re: Paper 6: RF - Textbooks going online [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Rosemarie et al, As I understand their approach, McGraw Hill will install "Top Class" on your server to administer your course on -line. That will provide an overall structure that permits on-line quizzing, reviewing of study guides and course notes, grade distribution, and other administrative chores. Each student has an individual account, with the corresponding user name and password, and his/her progress is tracked by the software. It's similar to what you describe and what many of us are working on, and in this case it will closely parallel the Chang text. I worry about my network administrator's response to having an outside company install such a system on our servers, but other than that this model may serve well. As is typical with most publishers, the intent is to sell more copies of Chang, not to move the world to the WWW. It may still be true that the most important decision is what text we are most comfortable with, since in this model the text is the central, organizing metaphor. As has been suggested, all publishers are trying to develop Internet incentives, and it's worth shopping around. You may also want to consider what the rest of your colleagues at your school are doing. At UNCW, I suspect we'll adopt a university wide testing and grade distribution system, either developed in house or purchased through some outside company, so students in every on-line course we offer will see the same stuff. Jimmy Reeves -----Original Message----- From: Rosamaria Fong To: CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU Date: Thursday, February 26, 1998 12:39 AM Subject: Paper 6: RF - Textbooks going online Last week I had an opportunity to talk to a representative from McGraw-Hill. I was told that their best-selling textbook by Chang has an accompanying Web-based study guide. I have not seen the study guide. Has anyone heard, seen or used this study guide? Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:20:33 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6: RF - RE: JR - Textbooks going online Jimmy Reeves wrote: >As I understand their approach, McGraw Hill will install "Top Class" on >your server to administer your course on -line. That will provide an >overall structure that permits on-line quizzing, reviewing of study guides >and course notes, grade distribution, and other administrative chores. Each >student has an individual account, with the corresponding user name and >password, and his/her progress is tracked by the software. My understanding is that they use their own software called MHLA, (McGraw Hill Learning A__ (something)), something that was developed from "TopClass", and they've made it proprietary. If one adopts the Chang textbook, one has the option to buy the software and someone will have to administer the server on campus. Students will have to spend additional money to buy the CD-ROM (for ID and password and have local access to the study guide) to use the study guide. > I worry about my network >administrator's response to having an outside company install such a system >on our servers, but other than that this model may serve well. As is >typical with most publishers, the intent is to sell more copies of Chang, >not to move the world to the WWW. It may still be true that the most >important decision is what text we are most comfortable with, since in this >model the text is the central, organizing metaphor. At BCIT, if our School of Business decides to go with McGraw-Hill study guides with their textbooks, we are thinking of one study guide per server. This is because our School of Business has a huge enrollment. This could become a nightmare for the school's network administrator. As with the Chang study guide, I agree that the intent is to sell more copies of the textbook. I wonder if McGraw-Hill sat down with any of the professors in the design stages of the study guide. If the study guide is open for viewing, please pass on the URL. Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:37:03 +0000 From: pankuch Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 24 Feb 1998 to 25 Feb 1998 >From Walt Volland >This success might be the result of increased interest because of the medium >used to in the classes but that is irrelevant. The positive effects are >really what are important. We have finite resources to help our students with, and they have finite time to learn with, it is important to find the most efficient new methods, especially those which are long term effective. Looking at details may help us identify what aspects are most effective. If they exist. As George says below "Understanding this should help to create more efficient study guides." George Long >The whole problem is just crying out for some good AI. I guess >thats why I'm interested in exactly how the students use the web study >guide, what paths they take through the information, etc. Understanding >this should help to create more efficient study guides. Sounds a lot like the Artificial Intelligence 'expert system' which has proven quite successful in a number of specific applications. It would be interesting if Rosamaria has a sense ofwhat particular parts seem most effective for the students actually learning chemistry? I can see where "online testing and the online display of marks are the most effective tools." would be popular, but how do they help the student learn chemistry? Rosamaria Fong wrote: >Any suggestions as to how it could be set up so that the I can draw unbiased >conclusions from the data? >I dug up my marks folder and these are the class average from each offering. >I've taught this course 5 times. I'd say the enrolment is about 10 students >per offering of the course. >1993 summer 65% (traditional method of teaching) >1994 summer 66% (traditional method of teaching) >1996 winter 73% (traditional method + study guide) >1996 summer 70% (traditional method + study guide) >1997 summer 78% (traditional method + study guide) With small numbers of students, with one section available at a time I don't see a way to experiment using double blind controls. You could ask a colleague to look at the tests you've given over the last five years to get an opinion if you've changed difficulty level. I can see why your students spend time with your study guide, it is quite interesting exploring the links. What kind of questions do you ask based on the Bader site? Brian Pankuch [Part 9.2, "Card for brian pankuch" Text/X-VCARD 12 lines] [Unable to print this part] [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:12:20 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6: RF - Study Guide >It would be >interesting if Rosamaria has a sense ofwhat particular parts seem most >effective for the students actually learning chemistry? I can see where >"online testing and the online display of marks are the most effective tools." > would be popular, but how do they help the student learn chemistry? > An area of on-going research is to determine the degree to which student's study skills are transferred to other subject areas. What's important is at that some point the guidance that students get from using the online study guide will become self-actuating and influence student study habits in courses where this was not provided. What is not known at present is which on-line components contributed the most to student success, or if the same guidance given off-line would have the same effect. However, if students at a pre-college level are finding this type of tool helpful, perhaps, the use of similar tools could be beneficial at the high school level. Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:00:05 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6: RF- Textbooks going online While we were discussing textbooks going online, this came in on another discussion listserv that may be of interest to all. Rosamaria Fong >Today at Okanagan University College Murray Goldberg gave a talk describing >his WebCT software for developing Interactive Academic Web Courses. During >the talk it was revealed that an agreement has been made with Prentice Hall >publishing company to use WebCT with a significant number of their >textbooks. Prentice Hall would supply instructors with a WebCT package >specially designed to complement a text they publish. This package could >contain online course lecture notes, glossary of terms, online >conferencing, student email, online note indexing and search capabilities, >online quizzes, and a host of student management tools. Some of these >packages will be available this fall. > > >Murray also throughout some numbers related to WebCT's use at various >institutions. UBC has about 300 courses using WebCT in some form. While >UCLA in California has over 1000 courses online. > >Michael > > > > >__________________________________ >Dr. Michael Pidwirny [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:05:32 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Paper 6: RF - Final remarks I want to thank you all for your interest in the web-based study guide that I've developed for teaching Chemistry. I've enjoyed the discussion tremendously. Feel free to send me an e-mail if you would like to share more thoughts on this subject. Best regards, Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438 [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:08:47 -0600 From: sc18 Subject: Re: Paper 6: RF- Textbooks going online I'm intensely interested in WebCT for mobilizing prevenient knowledge in organic. How can I contact Murray Goldberg? Sincerely, Ken Fountain [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:35:38 -0800 From: Terry Ramage Subject: Re: Paper 6: RF - Textbooks going online I haven't. Rosamaria can you tell someone that students use the guide for a variety of reasons. I am a weaker student, poor in math and I can use this study guide to preview each unit so that when it is presented in class the understanding and comprehension increases exponentially. The study guide is keyed to the course and therefore I am not spending a lot of time getting sidetracked reading other interesting but not relevant stuff in the text book. Also when you are logged on and are paying for the time online you go and get what you want or need and get off, so you are a lot more focused when you log on, as oppposed to when you pick up a text book. And there is the argument for the youth of today that are very comfortable at a computer and maybe more so that with a large intimidating text book open in front of them. Just some basic thoughts, nothing too ceribal. Dianne (still having fun) Rosamaria Fong wrote: > > Last week I had an opportunity to talk to a representative from McGraw-Hill. > I was told that their best-selling textbook by Chang has an accompanying > Web-based study guide. I have not seen the study guide. Has anyone heard, > seen or used this study guide? > > Rosamaria Fong > British Columbia Institute of Technology > http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ > rfong@bcit.bc.ca > 604-412-7438 [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:34:34 -0600 From: sc18 Subject: Re: Paper 6: RF - Textbooks going online Terry Ramage wrote: > I haven't. Rosamaria can you tell someone that students use the guide for a > variety of > reasons. I am a weaker student, poor in math and I can use this study guide to > preview > each unit so that when it is presented in class the understanding and > comprehension > increases exponentially. The study guide is keyed to the course and therefore I > am not > spending a lot of time getting sidetracked reading other interesting but not > relevant > stuff in the text book. Hi All, This is a classical situation about which I've written before. This student mobilizes his "prevenient knowledge" and then when he sees how the "master" deals artfully with the same material, he makes progress in his own understanding. We all need to apply ourselves to understanding the Tacit Dimension, written on by Polanyi. [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:49:56 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 6 - McGraw Hill Site In a few minutes we will begin with Short Questions about Paper 8. I am forwarding this message from Rosamaria Fong relating to some of the discussion of Paper 6. Donald Rosenthal ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: McGraw-Hill site This came a little late past the discussion for my paper, but here's URL for the McGraw-Hill site if you want to pass it onto the conference participants. http://www.mhla.net/ It's a demo site to view the MHLA (McGraw-Hill Learning Architecture) sample chapters, and demo on editting a page, a test, etc ... Quite interesting Thanks, Rosmaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/ rfong@bcit.bc.ca 604-412-7438