Discussion archive for Paper #4 Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:55:02 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 4 - Short Questions for Paper 4 To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal Re: SHORT QUESTIONS FOR PAPER 4 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It is 8 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time - 1300 GMT) on Friday, February 6. During the next 24 hours you may send SHORT QUESTIONS about Paper 4 - "Collaboration: Why Participate In an Unnatural Act?" by John V. Clevenger to the author and the conference participants. SHORT QUESTIONS are sent to clarify aspects of the paper, obtain more information from the author and/or conference participants and help to promote subsequent discussion. Answers to SHORT QUESTIONS will be sent at the beginning of the discussion on Monday, February 9. DISCUSSION of Paper 4 will begin on Monday, February 9 and continue ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ through Thursday, February 12. The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/Chemistry/ChemConference/ChemConf98/ Short Questions should be sent to CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU Please include the PAPER NUMBER, YOUR INITIALS AND THE TOPIC IN THE SUBJECT LINE, e.g. "Paper 4 - GH: Collaboration - What are the Disadvantages?" These messages will be received by the author AND the conference registrants. Please send ASCII only messages with no more than 72 characters per ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ line and no attachments. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ To send comments or questions privately to the author of the paper, send your message to the author's e-mail address given in the paper. Reports of typographical errors, spelling or grammatical errors should be sent directly to the author and not to CHEMCONF. [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:33:55 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 4 - DR: Some SQ - Teaching, Research and Evaluations Re: Paper 4 - DR: SQ - Teaching, Research and Evaluation I enjoyed your paper and found information contained in some of the hot links which you provided to be most interesting. Some Short Questions ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 1. Some of the best students I have had (at a four-year university) have been graduates of two-year community colleges. In Tamar Y. Susskind's article "Is Articulation from Two to Four-year Colleges an Allowed or a Forbidden Transition", she states that "the percentage of students who transfer to senior institutions has declined compared with the percentage of students who enroll in courses that lead to immediate employment. The community college mission is not primarily for student transfer to a baccalaureate-granting institution. It draws more poorly prepared students and encourages part-time commuters. . ." It is apparent you have students of widely different abilities. How do you manage to stimulate your best students without losing your poorer students? 2. In your Teaching & Research - Enhancement & Collaboration (TREC) Program, you support research (faculty development); curriculum development projects which involve faculty in the creative and continuing renewal of undergraduate courses, curricula and laboratories. Faculty development projects target the preparation and revitalization of faculty teaching undergraduates. The TREC Program is designed to strengthen a broad spectrum of professional, scholarly interactions between research institutions and community colleges. (I have approximately quoted from your description of the program.) While I have a general idea what your talking about, will you provide a more detailed description of several chemistry projects. What is the role of the community college teacher and the research institution in this enterprise? How do you evaluate the success of these projects? Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:51:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Paper #4, TOH: Collaborative electronic communications I note that there has been substantial (and welcome) participation of community college faculty in the CHEMCONF conferences. 1. Can electronic communication networks (email, listserves, newsgroups, Web sites, etc) effectively foster inter-campus collaboration between 4- and 2-year colleges? 2. Do community college commonly provide dial-up modem pools, email accounts, and Web server space for their faculty? 3. Do four-year colleges typically make their network facilities accessible to community college faculty whose own institutions do not. Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry University of Maryland Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry College Park, MD 20742 Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation (301) 405-1831 to2@umail.umd.edu FAX: (301) 314-9121 http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:33:02 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: Paper #4-WV- Collab elec com Dear Tom, On Friday you asked > 1. Can electronic communication networks (email, listserves, > newsgroups, Web sites, etc) effectively foster inter-campus > collaboration between 4- and 2-year colleges? There are no such arrangements in place here in Washington. Cost and control issues may be the determining factor. > 2. Do community college commonly provide dial-up modem pools, > email accounts, and Web server space for their faculty? The colleges typically provide email accounts and web access in Washington. We don't use modem pools at BCC except to provide faculty access to our server and then the web.. I can't think of any colleges here that use modem pools to access the web from campus. > 3. Do four-year colleges typically make their network facilities > accessible to community college faculty whose own institutions do > not. No, if the four year colleges are making accounts available to community college faculty the four year schools are not publicizing the possiblities very well. Walt > Dr. Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue WA 98007 > 425-641-2467 > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html > > [ Part 13: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:26:52 EST5EDT From: Garry McGlaun Subject: Re: Paper #4, TOH: Collaborative electronic communications Hi, Gainesville College is one of fifteen 2 yr institutions in the University System of Georgia. There are a total of 34 institutions in the state system and we are all networked . Each faculty on our campus is provided with a computer in his/her office. We are virtually all linked together on campus and across the state. In fact , faculty in different institutions regularly communicate via the Peachnet network. Maybe this answers some of your questions. Garry McGlaun [ Part 14: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:22:31 -0800 From: Bob Bruner Subject: Re: Paper #4, BB reply to TOH: Collaborative electronic communications At 12:51 PM 2/6/98 EST, TOH wrote: >I note that there has been substantial (and welcome) participation >of community college faculty in the CHEMCONF conferences. > >1. Can electronic communication networks (email, listserves, >newsgroups, Web sites, etc) effectively foster inter-campus >collaboration between 4- and 2-year colleges? > Potentially, yes. So far, any such interaction is more ad hoc than organized. >2. Do community college commonly provide dial-up modem pools, >email accounts, and Web server space for their faculty? > At Contra Costa College, we now have email available for all faculty and staff, but not for students. No dial-in access (which is why I and about half the chem dept use non-CCC email). I once asked whether Web server space is available, and got a somewhat ambiguous answer; presumably this will happen in due course. We do have a computer room for our science students. They have internet access from there, and can use MS Office. Specialized programs are installed on some computers -- depending on cost. Further, I can put files on our local server for the students to access in the computer room. Most of this reflects developments within the last year or so. Another school in our district is considerably ahead of us. >3. Do four-year colleges typically make their network facilities >accessible to community college faculty whose own institutions do >not. Gee, that would be nice. The problem is that we are all funded by the same ultimate source, the state legislature. Both the Univ Calif and the community colleges continually perceive that they are underfunded. So the question would be what the incentive is. Of course, the legislature could mandate some such cooperation. Or enlightened folks on both sides might realize that some such cooperation might be of mutual benefit and cost effective. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. (Although that is a political statement, I don't think it is particularly partisan. Of course, if Diane had chosen to run for governor...) Bob Bruner Contra Costa College, San Pablo, CA and UC Berkeley Extension [ Part 15: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:12:04 -0800 From: John Clevenger Subject: Corrections to References - Paper #4, Colleagues, Since the conference started, it's been pointed out to me that one of the links in the references at the end didn't work. When I looked again, I noticed that some of them had actually gone away! So, until I get the web version fixed, the references and their urls are below. thanks for reading John Clevenger Truckee Meadows Community College Reno, NV clevenge@scs.unr.edu Paper # 4 References: 1. Herron, J.D.; The Chemistry Classroom: Formulas for Successful Teaching; The American Chemical Society: Washington, DC, 1996. ACS Books {http://pubs.acs.org/books/index.html} 2. Clevenger, J. Collaboration: Why Participate in an Unnatural Act? J. Chem. Ed. 1997 74. 3. Cunnif, P.; Hieggelke, C.; Smith, B. Putting the Pieces Together: A Guide Book for Leaders of Coalitions of Two- and Four-Year Colleges and Universities ; Prince George's Community College: Largo, MD, 1993. 4. Susskind, T., Is Articulation from Two- to Four-Year Colleges and Allowed or a Forbidden Transition? J. Chem. Educ. 1997 74 1156 {http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/Journal/Issues/1997/Oct/abs1156.html} 5. Roueche, J.; Taber, L.S.; Roueche, S.D. Eds; The Company We Keep: Collaboration in the Community College , American Association of Community Colleges: Washington, D.C 1995. Community College Press {http://www.aacc.nche.edu/commun/publicat/publicat.htm} 6. National Science Foundation Workshop on Science, Engineering, and Mathematics Education in Two-Year Colleges. NSF 89-50 7. National Science Foundatin Report on Disciplinary Workshops on Undergraduate Education. NSF 89-3 8. National Science Foundation, Shaping the Future , NSF 96-139 (http://www.ehr.nsf.gov/EHR/DUE/documents/review/96139/start.htm) 9. Boyer, E. Scholarship Reconsidered: Priorities of the Professorate: The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching: Princeton, NJ, 1990 10. Bunce, D.M.; Robinson, W. R. Research in Chemical Education - the Third Branch of Our Profession J. Chem. Educ. 1997 74 1076 11. Huber, M.T.; Glassick, C.E.; and Maeroff, G.I.Scholarship Assessed: Evaluation of the Professoriate The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching: Princeton, NJ, 1997 12. Ignash, J. In the Shadow of Baccalaureate Institutions; ERIC Digest, ED348129; ERIC Clearinghouse for Community Colleges: Los Angeles, CA, 1992. 13. Mahaffey, J.; Welsh, Michael F. Commun. Coll. Rev. 1993 21(1) 31-40. 14. Fostering a Climate for Faculty Scholarship at Community Colleges ; Palmer, J.; Vaughan, G., Eds.; American Association of Community and Junior Colleges: Washington, D.C 1992. 15. Williams, D. The Role of Scholarship in the Community College; ERIC Digest, ED338294; ERIC Clearinghouse for Community Colleges: Los Angeles, 1991. 16. Strategic Directions for the University and Community College System, UCCSN Board of Regents, 1993 17. National Science Foundation EPSCoR Program Announcement (NSF 94-55) 18. Support from the National Science Foundation EPSCoR {http://www.ehr.nsf.gov/EHR/EPSCOR/start.htm } Program (Grant No. OSR-9553369) , the Nevada EPSCoR Program{http://www.nevada.edu/~epscor1/ }, and the community college presidents of the University and Community College System of Nevada {http://www.nevada.edu/} is gratefully acknowledged. Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:38:01 -0500 From: "Richard O. Pendarvis" Subject: Re: Paper #4, TOH: Collaborative electronic communications On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, to2 wrote: > I note that there has been substantial (and welcome) participation > of community college faculty in the CHEMCONF conferences. > > 1. Can electronic communication networks (email, listserves, > newsgroups, Web sites, etc) effectively foster inter-campus > collaboration between 4- and 2-year colleges? Yes. I think this is clear from the participation in CHEMED-L and various www sites. > 2. Do community college commonly provide dial-up modem pools, > email accounts, and Web server space for their faculty? My school provides email accounts for some faculty (those who have a computer). Web server space is another issue since it would require the time of our tragicaly overburdened computer services people. As it is, we are lucky to get any kind of support other than that we can provide ourselves. > 3. Do four-year colleges typically make their network facilities > accessible to community college faculty whose own institutions do > not. I do not know of any of the schools in Florida providing this kind of service. In general, we should have a lot better relationships with the state universities than we do currently. During one of our education budgeting crises some years back a University of Florida faculty member (not in chemistry) was quoted in the Gainesville newspaper with something to the effect that "If things do not get better, we will be nothing more than a glorified community college." This does not offend us. We have gotten used to this sort of thing. /* Richard */ #include - - ____ | | _ | | Organic Chemistry / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming / \ | | / \ || Pizza / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:18:36 -0800 From: John Clevenger Subject: Responses to S.Q. Paper #4 Response #1 to S.Q. - Paper # 4 From: Donald Rosenthal S.Q. 1. Some of the best students I have had (at a four-year university) have been graduates of two-year community colleges. cut It is apparent you have students of widely different abilities. How do you manage to stimulate your best students without losing your poorer students? Response: First a general response is that two-year, or community colleges, serve their geographic communities and define their mission and roles within that community; including what other types of educational opportunities are available. What that translates into is that one must be careful of generalized statements about all two-year or community colleges - just as it would be difficult to make statements about all four-year institutions; their missions and their students. For example, some two-year schools in areas with chemistry based industries, have major chemical technology programs. In others, transfer to baccalaureate programs (including, but certainly not limited to, chemistry) is prominent; including science for non-science majors. Many others have these; plus service to allied health degrees, and a variety of technical programs with the college. Usually what this means is that stimulating students is not the main problem. They tend to highly motivated. In that context, our mission is helping these students learn chemistry to achieve their goals. Many institutions have excellent assessment, advising, and support mechanisms, including prep courses. Faculty are also very accessible, classes are often small (24-28 students), faculty also personally teach the labs. and get to know, and work with individual students. Im certain other community college faculty on CHEMCONF can describe specifics at their institutions. Since I started to teach in community colleges in 1971, Ive always had courses limited to no more than 28 students. I teach all lectures and labs and can work with each student as an individual. It obviously takes a lot of time, but its very rewarding. S.Q. 2. In your (TREC) Program,you support research cut The TREC Program is designed to strengthen a broad spectrum of professional, scholarly interactions between research institutions and community colleges While I have a general idea what your talking about, will you provide a more detailed description of several chemistry projects. What is the role of the community college teacher and the research institution in this enterprise? How do you evaluate the success of these projects? Response: As described in the paper, the original focus of the program was on traditional research, in any field that was NSF supported. These ranged from development of a UV sensing device for use under the ice in Antarctica, to field biology, to solid state chemistry detection of amino acids. These have resulted in co-authorship of papers, collaboration on grant proposals, presentations of professional papers, and other scholarly activities such as curriculum development for new courses and labs.The collaborating community college faculty becomes part of the research team at the universities and research institute. Several criteria are used to monitor and assess the of the program. These include: (1)The number of research programs identified which can provide opportunities for collaborative research for community college faculty. (2)The number of community college faculty identified who have appropriate interests and backgrounds to participate in collaborative research programs; (3)The number and quality of collaborative appointments established, utilizing measures of scholarly activities such as publications, presentations, curricular materials developed, and revisions of existing courses; and (4) Progress reports from TREC Program participants submitted to the TREC Program Office. The most recent RFP, that you now see on the web site, has been expanded to include proposals that would involve curriculum development and faculty development. This is an expansion from the more traditional research focus into areas similar to those of NSFs Division of Undergraduate Education. The closing date is March 13, so weve not seen what new creative ideas might appear. --------- Response #2 to S.Q. - Paper # 4 From: Tom O'Haver S.Q. 1. Can electronic communication networks (email, listserves, newsgroups, Web sites, etc) effectively foster inter-campus collaboration between 4- and 2-year colleges? S.Q. 2. Do community college commonly provide dial-up modem pools, email accounts, and Web server space for their faculty? S.Q. 3. Do four-year colleges typically make their network facilities accessible to community college faculty whose own institutions do not. Response: Please see my response to Don's questions about the variety of different types of two-year institutions. Just as their missions differ, so does the level of support for collaborative electronic communications. Weve already seen that in the responses from Walt Volland, Garry McGlaun, Bob Bruner, and Richard Pendarvis. 1. Can electronic networks foster collaboration? Definitely. Do they now, and what does it take to accomplish this remain to be answered. 2. Do community colleges provide e-mail, web service, etc? Obviously this varies. In my case, you might notice that my e-mail address is from the University of Nevada, Reno (unr) and the web site for the paper is the University of Nevada, Las Vegas (unlv). Until this year, Truckee Meadows Comm. Coll. (tmcc) didnt provide these services directly, but we all had access since all of Nevada has one system, University and Community College System of Nevada (uccsn). TMCC is making progress for faculty and students. All our students can obtain an e-mail account for free, but currently this seems to take our system up to 3 weeks. 3. Do four-year colleges typically make their network facilities accessible to community college faculty whose own institutions do not? Not to my knowledge, unless theyre connected in some way as ours is, see # 2 above. Many of my friends in community colleges have their own e-mail service from commercial providers, since the institutions havent provided them. John John Clevenger Truckee Meadows Comm. Coll. Reno, NV 89512 clevenge@scs.unr.edu [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:26:47 -0700 From: gary mort Subject: Re: Paper #4, TOH: Collaborative electronic communications I can't answer for anyone else, but.. > >1. Can electronic communication networks (email, listserves, >newsgroups, Web sites, etc) effectively foster inter-campus >collaboration between 4- and 2-year colleges? Absolutely. I love teaching but the isolation from collegues would have driven me around the bend had it no been for the timely intervention of first Chemedl and now ChemConf. The contacts I have made on the list have been followed by more personal interaction both on the web and at national conferences. >2. Do community college commonly provide dial-up modem pools, >email accounts, and Web server space for their faculty? Ours does. >3. Do four-year colleges typically make their network facilities >accessible to community college faculty whose own institutions do >not. No idea. gary mort dixie college >Tom >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:53:52 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 4 - Begin Discussion To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU Re: BEGIN DISCUSSION OF PAPER 4 It is 8 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time - 1300 GMT) on Monday, February 9. The next 96 hours will be devoted to discussion of Paper 4 - "Collaboration: Why Participate In an Unnatural Act?" by John V. Clevenger The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/Chemistry/ChemConference/ChemConf98/ Messages should be sent to CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU Please include: the PAPER NUMBER, YOUR INITIALS AND THE TOPIC IN THE SUBJECT LINE, e.g. "Paper 4 - GH: Changes In Courses Resulting From Interaction" These messages will be received by the author AND the conference registrants. Please send ASCII only messages with no more than 72 characters per ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ line and no attachments. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Appropriately labelled subject lines will be useful in sorting out the various discussion threads. Only discussion which is sent from the SAME MAIL ADDRESS from which you subscribed will be accepted and distributed to participants. Place your name, affiliation and e-mail address at the end of your message. Remember that messages sent to CHEMCONF will be distributed to all participants. 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To resume receipt of messages, send the message: SET CHEMCONF MAIL to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU Signing Off ^^^^^^^^^^^ In the event you wish to sign off CHEMCONF, please send the one line message: SIGNOFF CHEMCONF to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU Note that each of the above commands is sent to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD and NOT CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU --------------------------------------- SCHEDULE ^^^^^^^^ February 9 to 12 - Discussion of Paper 4 February 13 to 19 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 5 February 20 to 26 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 6 February 27 to Mar. 5 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 7 March 6 to 12 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 8 March 13 to 19 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 9 March 20 to 26 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 10 April 10 to 16 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 11 April 17 to 23 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 12 April 24 to May 15 - Evaluation and Discussion of Selected Topics If you need HELP, please send an e-mail message to: Tom O'Haver at to2@umail.umd.edu and NOT TO CHEMCONF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ======================================================================= [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 00:18:40 +0900 From: Hideyuki Kanematsu Subject: Paper4 - HK: Education and Research Dear John V. Clevenger!! I am sorry that I don't know very much about your higher educational system in USA, that is, I don't know precisely how institutions of higher education in your country have been managed. But your paper about the relation between two-year and four-year institutions in the past and future gave me, a Japanese college teacher, some important tips. For we have also here research-oriented four-year universities with graduate courses and education-oriented two-year colleges. The latter is divided further into two groups, usual two-year junior colleges for high school graduates and our technical colleges with five year programs for junior high school graduates. I am working at the latter technical college. I don't know if your community colleges would correspond to our "colleges" precisely. But at least, junior colleges and our technical colleges have been much more education-oriented than usual universities in these 40 years. Those college students must transfer to junior classes in other universities after graduation to get bachelor degrees. In the first half of my carrier, I worked at an "usual" four-year university, and then I changed to an education-oriented technical college. Therefore, I could go through higher education in Japan from the two opposite view points by chance. Naturally, I often heard in the university that we should focus on the research much more than on education. The staffs who devoted themselves to education looked like a "hermit" from their first class research world, and were not actually appreciated so much by their colleagues and administrators. On the other hand, I have often heard here in our college that we should not give ourselves to research activities. Here the staffs who pursue the research activity too much have been treated as a sort of heretic. But when I moved from an university to our college 6 years ago, the two year programs for bachelor degrees were added to some of the technical colleges in Japan. (Our college was one of them.) It means that our colleges, education-oriented institutions in the past, are changing its original nature to research-oriented one gradually. On the other hand, Japanese universities are now in the middle of the reforms. They are trying to attach a much more importance to education. In Japan, the reform of educational system is usually lead and guided by the strong Ministry of Education, Science and Culture. They are now promoting "the multiple-tracking of education". For example, students who enter our college after graduating junior highs and complete our 5 year programs can transfer to other universities as juniors or can still continue to follow more two year programs in our college for baccalaureates. They can have many choices now. Under such a system, i.e. the multiple tracking education system, where students can adjust their orbital several times in their school years, the discussion about the priority between education and research sounds me a little bit hollow. I think now about the problem in the following way: In higher educational institutions (I mean both two year colleges and four year universities.), both of education and research should be equally pursued. How can the teachers always provide the students better advanced materials for their education, if they give up their research activities? And who can imagine the educational institution without education, even though it might be a first class university? You wrote in your paper: >Research and education were often seen as rivals rather than >reinforcing each other... The statement touched my heart. I don't think that it should be so. Research and education should be always closely connected with each other for sound higher education. I may wander from your subject a little bit. But that was my feedback from your paper. I hope that my comment from Japan will add something new to your viewpoint. Regards Hide ------------------------------------------------------------ Hideyuki Kanematsu Associate Professor, Dr.Eng. Dept. MS & E. Suzuka National College of Technology email:kanemats:mse.suzuka-ct.ac.jp web page:http://www.suzuka-ct.ac.jp/~kanemats phone:+81-593-68-1849 (direct) FAX:+81-593-87-0338 ********************************************************* If you want to contact with me on private business, please email to reihidek@mint.or.jp (Reiko & Hideyuki Kanematsu)!! ********************************************************* [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:27:26 EST From: Walt Volland Subject: Re: Paper 4-WV - CC the changing student Here in Washington we have a state wide program that enables high school students to take college classes before they graduate from high school. They need to have approval from their high school and the college. This program has altered the demographics of our classes. We are seeing many exceptional students who later move to four year colleges when they graduate from high school. This program allows students to take courses that would never be available in their high schools. Because of this program, I have seen some extremely bright young people in my chemistry classes. If this program didn't exist they probably would not have attended class at a community college. The level of discussion has improved in many cases because of these students. I also teach evening general chemistry classes. The evening students are generally very motivated. They also frequently have a wealth of practical experience. Generalizations about community college students are risky. Our college draws students from all over the state and metropolitan area. We have had many students who attend the University of Washington take classes at BCC because of the classes were unavailable at the U of W or the class sizes seemed better at BCC. Our chemistry department has instituted improvements in instruction such as microscale labs, computer simulation experiments, molecular modelling labs, etc. that the U of W didn't do because of the associated costs. Similarly our class sessions typically involve some interactive work. This has been true for years. It is difficult to imagine someone talking straight through a full lecture hour. The people in the seats need some active work besides writing their notes. Walt Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu luckybel@aol.com http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:33:03 -0500 From: "Richard O. Pendarvis" Subject: ROP: Paper 4-WV - CC the changing student On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Walt Volland wrote: > Here in Washington we have a state wide program that enables high school > students to take college classes before they graduate from high school. They > need to have approval from their high school and the college. This program > has altered the demographics of our classes. We are seeing many exceptional > students who later move to four year colleges when they graduate from high > school. > > This program allows students to take courses that would never be available in > their high schools. Because of this program, I have seen some extremely > bright young people in my chemistry classes. If this program didn't exist > they probably would not have attended class at a community college. The level > of discussion has improved in many cases because of these students. We have a similar arrangement with the local schools. We do get some good students that way. My brightest students have been somewhat older. One who went to the U. Florida Dental school directly from our college and did very well there. Another who at 32 came back to college to become a pharmacist. I think the difference may be maturity. > I also teach evening general chemistry classes. The evening students are > generally very motivated. They also frequently have a wealth of practical > experience. We have poor luck getting enough students in evening classes for them to operate. We were unable to get introductory chemistry to make at night for 3 years running and gave up. Our night section of health occupations chemistry is just barely running. > Generalizations about community college students are risky. Our college draws > students from all over the state and metropolitan area. We have had many > students who attend the University of Washington take classes at BCC because > of the classes were unavailable at the U of W or the class sizes seemed better > at BCC. We have the same situation. Our students span every level of society. An interesting site is to watch classes changing. You will see students dressed in every manner imaginable. Everything from office clothes to various kinds of uniforms is evident. > Our chemistry department has instituted improvements in instruction such as > microscale labs, computer simulation experiments, molecular modelling labs, > etc. that the U of W didn't do because of the associated costs. We do a lot of these things as well. In view of our level of budgeting, it is somewhat of a miracle that we can manage it. At my school, there are only 2 full time chemistry faculty and a few part time people. If we decide we want to do something different, there are no committees or similar red tape. Anything we can think of that we can afford can be tried. /* Richard */ #include - - ____ | | _ | | Organic Chemistry / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming / \ | | / \ || Pizza / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:11:42 -0700 From: gary mort Subject: Re: ROP: Paper 4-WV - CC the changing student Without resending all the Walt and Richard sent in on the "not over generalizing about CC students," let me say ditto. They are all over the map in terms of ability and diligence. In California the UC is mandated to take the top 10% of high school seniors. CalState must take the top 30%. We used to say UC gets the top 10%, CalState gets the top 30% and the CCs get the top 100%. In jest, none-the-less it's a fairly accurate assessment. gm [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:28:03 -0500 From: Paul Schueler Subject: Re: ROP: Paper 4-WV - CC the changing student At 04:11 PM 2/9/98 -0700, you wrote: >We used to say UC gets the top 10%, CalState gets the top 30% and the CCs >get the top 100%. In jest, none-the-less it's a fairly accurate assessment. > No kidding! Two years ago, I had student in Organic Chemistry I & II who was the college valedictorian (straight A's as a science major), transferred to NYU as a full junior, and is now applying to medical schools. He was at most the fourth best student in a class of 35. Like many of our best students, he was in his late twenties, with a job (which he gave up to go full time to NYU) and a family--our average student age is about 29. We also are required to accept all graduating HS students, but our returning adult students tend to be highly motivated, mature, and usually a pleasure to teach. Paul Dr. Paul Schueler, Professor (Chemistry) Raritan Valley Community College P. O. Box 3300, Somerville, NJ 08876 (908)526-1200 XT8219 pschuele@rvcc.raritanval.edu http://rvcc2.raritanval.edu/~scieng/Schueler.html [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:15:48 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 4 DR: 4-Year Programs at 2-Year Schools Re: Paper 4 - DR: Four-Year Programs at Two-Year Schools Hideyuki Kanematsu in his message of 2-10-98 wrote: > two year programs for bachelor degrees were added to some of the technical > colleges in Japan. Several of the two-year schools in our area have introduced an addition two years in certain programs. Thus, a student can obtain a bachelor's degree without changing schools. None of the programs I know about are in chemistry. Are there two-year schools which have expanded their programs to four-year programs in chemistry and related sciences? If so, why? Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:18:17 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 4 DR: Interaction Between 4-Y Schools and 2-Y Stud. Re: Paper 4 - DR: Interaction Between Four-Year Schools and Two-Year Students In the TREC Program (The Nevada Teaching & Research - Enhancement & Collaboration Project) - teachers from two-year schools do research with faculty at four-year schools to enhance the teachers and their courses. Presumably, this has a trickle down effect on the students. Another approach would be to involve the two-year school students in research projects and/or other activities at the four-year schools (or to involve students in a continuation of the research at the two-year school). Has this been done in Nevada or elsewhere? If so, how useful has this been? Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:32:27 -0800 From: john clevenger Subject: Re: Paper 4 DR: 4-Year Programs at 2-Year Schools At 5:15 PM 2/10/98 -0500, Donald Rosenthal wrote: >Re: Paper 4 - DR: Four-Year Programs at Two-Year Schools > >Several of the two-year schools in our area have introduced an addition >two years in certain programs. Thus, a student can obtain a bachelor's >degree without changing schools. None of the programs I know about are >in chemistry. > >Are there two-year schools which have expanded their programs >to four-year programs in chemistry and related sciences? >If so, why? I know of a two-year college in Utah that is offering bachelor's degrees in a few narrowly defined areas and one in Nevada is currently considering this. Neither is in chemistry or related sciences. The motivation is service to vast geographic areas, for a few students, in certain carefully defined programs. John John Clevenger Truckee Meadows Comm. Coll. Reno, NV 89512 clevenge@scs.unr.edu 702-673-7197 [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:31:45 -0600 From: Doris Kimbrough Subject: Re: Paper 4 DR: Interaction Between 4-Y Schools and 2-Y Stud. At 05:18 PM 2/10/98 -0500, Don Rosenthal wrote: >Re: Paper 4 - DR: Interaction Between Four-Year Schools and Two-Year Students > >Another approach would be to involve the two-year school students >in research projects and/or other activities at the four-year schools >(or to involve students in a continuation of the research at the >two-year school). > >Has this been done in Nevada or elsewhere? >If so, how useful has this been? I know a research collaboration between community college students and MIT faculty has been done in Boston. I forget the community college (Roxbury perhaps?). I seem to remember that the research projects were predominantly in materials science. Perhaps someone in the Boston area knows more about this? Doris Doris R. Kimbrough Chemistry Department Box 194 University of Colorado at Denver P.O. Box 173364 Denver, CO 80217-3364 dkimbrough@castle.cudenver.edu [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:37:55 -0800 From: john clevenger Subject: Re: Paper 4 DR: Interaction Between 4-Y Schools and 2-Y Stud. At 5:18 PM 2/10/98 -0500, Donald Rosenthal wrote: >Re: Paper 4 - DR: Interaction Between Four-Year Schools and Two-Year Students > >In the TREC Program (The Nevada Teaching & Research - Enhancement & >Collaboration Project) - teachers from two-year schools do research >with faculty at four-year schools to enhance the teachers and their >courses. Presumably, this has a trickle down effect on the students. >Another approach would be to involve the two-year school students >in research projects and/or other activities at the four-year schools >(or to involve students in a continuation of the research at the >two-year school). > >Has this been done in Nevada or elsewhere? >If so, how useful has this been? Some of the TREC collaborations in Nevada have involved students in the research projects with great success for all concerned. The funding so far has had to come from some source other than the TREC program. That's simply because the under the original NSF RFP which funded the program, funding for students wasn't allowed. As we look for the appropriate model, and funding, to continue the program inclusion of students definitely being considered in the mix. John John Clevenger Truckee Meadows Comm. Coll. Reno, NV 89512 clevenge@scs.unr.edu 702-673-7197 [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:32:35 +0900 From: Hideyuki Kanematsu Subject: Paper 4 HK-Re: Paper 4 DR: 4-Year Programs at 2-Year Schools Hello, dear Professor Rosenthal !! Thank you for your comment(subject:"Paper 4 DR: 4-Year Programs at 2-Year Schools", date:Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:15:48 EST). You wrote: > Are there two-year schools which have expanded their programs > to four-year programs in chemistry and related sciences? > If so, why? Yes, there are. The movement isn't restricted to chemistry and chemistry related sciences. I believe that it's a general tendency in Japan. The critical difference between two-year schools and four year schools lies on the power of granting the bachelor degree for graduates. In Japan, most of companies usually want to hire the young people just after graduating schools rather than those who have already a lot of experience in societies. ( Maybe our companies expect their "bright" futures.) But graduates without bachelor degrees have not been evaluated in societies, compared to those with bachelor degrees. Therefore, high school students tend to avoid two year schools as their choices in the present. In addition, our economic conditions are very bad right now, as you know. So it's very difficult for graduates to get their jobs right now. As a result, the number of applicants for two year schools will decrease drastically in the near future. Such a situation will make the management of schools difficult. That's why the two year school wants to expand its program to four year one. So I presume. I think the educational system can't be independent of the movement of society completely . I guess this is such an example. By the way, Professor Rosenthal, why don't your two year schools have to expand their programs only in chemistry? You wrote: >Several of the two-year schools in our area have introduced an addition >two years in certain programs. Thus, a student can obtain a bachelor's >degree without changing schools. None of the programs I know about are >in chemistry. Regards. Hide ------------------------------------------------------------ Hideyuki Kanematsu Associate Professor, Dr.Eng. Dept. MS & E. Suzuka National College of Technology email:kanemats:mse.suzuka-ct.ac.jp web page:http://www.suzuka-ct.ac.jp/~kanemats phone:+81-593-68-1849 (direct) FAX:+81-593-87-0338 [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:15:21 -0500 From: "Richard O. Pendarvis" Subject: ROP Paper 4 DR: 4-Year Programs at 2-Year Schools On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Donald Rosenthal wrote: > Several of the two-year schools in our area have introduced an addition > two years in certain programs. Thus, a student can obtain a bachelor's > degree without changing schools. None of the programs I know about are > in chemistry. > > Are there two-year schools which have expanded their programs > to four-year programs in chemistry and related sciences? > If so, why? In Florida, we are constrained against offering 4 year degrees or even courses past the soph. level by state regulations. Some schools have come up with ways to offer some of the courses in the past but I hear that the state Dept. of Ed. is cracking down on these. For some of our students, the choice is between us and nothing. I would like to see us offer 4 year degrees in at least some areas. The current situation forces some of our students to stop with a two year degree because economic realities will not let them go to school elsewhere. The U. of Florida is close to us but will generally not allow part time students. Thus those who cannot drop family and job and attend full time are left out. /* Richard */ #include - - ____ | | _ | | Organic Chemistry / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming / \ | | / \ || Pizza / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:15:45 EST From: Walt Volland Subject: Re: Paper 4 HK-Re: Paper 4 DR: 4-Year Programs at 2-Year Schools Hello, The question of expanding 2 year colleges into four year colleges is a legal issue in many states. The laws that created the two year system were established in negotiations in which the four year colleges agreed to the development of two year colleges, but wanted to retain the authority to be the sole grantors of four year degrees. There are transfer agreements between two and four year colleges. If they complete the AA degree, these agreements give our students a guaranteed space at the four year colleges. The expansion is a political question in Washington and many other states. The two year colleges are not free to make the change on their own. In Washington new legislation is required. There aren't any rumblings of such changes in the near future. Walt Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu luckybel@aol.com http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:42:10 +0900 From: Hideyuki Kanematsu Subject: Re[2]: Paper 4 HK-Re: Paper 4 DR: 4-Year Programs at 2-Year Schools Hello, dear Walt Volland !! Thank you for your comment(subject:"Re: Paper 4 HK-Re: Paper 4 DR: 4-Year Programs at 2-Year Schools", date:Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:15:45 EST). You wrote: > The question of expanding 2 year colleges into four year colleges is a legal > issue in many states. The laws that created the two year system were (skip) > The two year colleges are not free to make the change on their own. In > Washington new legislation is required. There aren't any rumblings of such changes in the near future. I understood your comment very well. Also in Japan, the law of establishment for 4 year schools and that for two year schools are completely different. So expanding two year program to four year one requires new legislation in Tokyo, too. Therefore, all of those two year schools had to ask for the approval of our government to expand the system. And the legislation process required the precise reports on our achievements for education and research. Of course, our four year schools were expected to oppose the movement and actually they did. Therefore, we can't still give our graduates the bachelor degrees by ourselves. The graduation thesis for bachelor degrees which our seniors write under our lead and guide is judged by another 4 year university. I presume that such a system would assure the authority of four year universities in Japan. As you imagined, I presumed that each college or university in USA would retain its own freedom for any reforms individually. Most of your systems sound me relatively free from various legal controls. But my assumption was wrong. So you seem to choose the way for harmony with each other rather than for the competition. I see, I will read paper 4 once again >from the view point. But your community colleges seem to give up the position of final educational institution, so long as you won't have your own four year program. I mean, the community college would be only a 'transit' school for students who want to get the bachelor of chemistry. Is it right? If so, the educational activity of community colleges would be behind that of four year universities completely. How many percentages of graduates from community colleges continue to study at universities according to the transfer agreement? I don't remember if the number would be mentioned in paper 4 or not. Maybe the answer would depend on states to which community colleges belong. Regards. ------------------------------------------------------------ Hideyuki Kanematsu Associate Professor, Dr.Eng. Dept. MS & E. Suzuka National College of Technology email:kanemats:mse.suzuka-ct.ac.jp web page:http://www.suzuka-ct.ac.jp/~kanemats phone:+81-593-68-1849 (direct) FAX:+81-593-87-0338 [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 05:37:44 EST From: Walt Volland Subject: Re: Paper 4 -WV-HK- Transfers The number of students in Washington community colleges who transfer to a four year college varies greatly. The percentage of chemistry students who transfer at BCC is very high. Upwards of 60% of our chemistry students transfer. This is not true for the student body at large. Walt Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu luckybel@aol.com http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:50:00 -0800 From: john clevenger Subject: Paper 4 Two-Year College Info. In view of some of the questions and discussion of two-year colleges, here are some additional references and sources of information that CHEMCONF participants may find useful John John Clevenger Truckee Meadows Comm. Coll. Reno, NV 89512 clevenge@scs.unr.edu 702-673-7197 --------------------------------- I. American Association of Community Colleges One Dupont Circle, NW, Suite 410 Washington, DC 20036-1176 General Information: 202-728-0200, ext. 216 FAX: 202-833-2467 Excellent source of general information, national statistics, and as well as information about specific institutions. 2. AACC online at: http://www.aacc.nche.edu Contains national information as well as WWW links and contact information for individual colleges. Describes AACC's Research Agenda and provides Current AACC Research Briefs. For example: AACC Membership Profile Older Students in Community Colleges Faculty in Community Colleges Female Faculty in Community Colleges Immigrants in the United States Community College Enrollment: Fall 1994 Higher Education Experiences of Community College Students 3. AACC Annual, 1996-97 Rouche, J., Ed. National Charts followed by state-by-state analysis of community college trends and statistics 4. National Profile of Community Colleges, 1997-98 Phillipe, K., Ed. National snapshot of trends and statistics related to community colleges enrollment, student outcomes, curriculum and faculty. 5. Improving Science, Mathematics, Engineering, and Technology Instruction: Strategies for the Community College Mahoney, J.R., Ed. Report of a 1996, NSF supported workshop. Establishes general principles and gives specific recommendations. Includes useful background papers and appendices, i.e. NSF resources and a listing of the Occupational Skills Standards Projects. [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:21:18 -0500 From: Ken Chapman Subject: Re: Re[2]: Paper 4 HK-Re: Paper 4 DR: 4-Year Programs at 2-Year Schools Hi, Most American 2-year colleges have 2 thrusts, transfer and occupational training. The latter programs are typically considered terminal. Many of these programs are 2 years in length and award Associate of Applied Science degrees. Others are shorter and result in Certificates. Over 100 2-year colleges claim to offer chemical laboratory technology programs under a variety of titles such as Chemical Technology, Environmental Technology, etc. However, only about 40 regularly graduate more than 3-4 per year. The total enrollments in these programs are small and result in less than 1,000 graduates per year. In an attempt to increase class sizes, many colleges try to educate technicians with transfer courses. However, my work suggests that this is the equivalent of only holding a bandage on a deep cut that requires sutures to do the job right. The American Chemical Society offers program approval for these programs, as is done for BS programs. Less than 10 2-year colleges offer chemical engineering technology programs, whose graduates are typically prepared best for work in pilot plants and related design work. Their enrollments are small and have been stagnant for many years. A rapidly rising educational area, totally ignored by chemistry educators until the needs became urgent a few years ago and still unrecognized by most, is Process Technology. These programs prepare their students for work as operators (process technicians)in chemical plants. In some areas where chemical industry is concentrated, the need for well-trained process technicians has become critical. In the Houston area, several 2-year colleges have established these programs in close working relationships with local industry and now enroll hundreds of students. Some of these programs were initiated with programs as short as 90 class contact hours, but all seem destined to become AAS 2-year programs within the next year. If you have interests in these areas, I will be happy to provide much greater detail by direct contact at k_chapman@acs.org so we do not take ChemConf bandwidth. Ken [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:51:12 -0500 From: Bill Pfeiffer Subject: Re: Paper 4 - WFP-Assessment & Evaluation I'm sorry for the late entry into this discussion, but I have not seen this question asked. Please redirect me if I've missed something. Toward the end of your paper, John, you are sound concerned about the continuation of the collaborative program(s) in Nevada. It seems that chances for continuation would be enhanced by reporting some assessment and evaluation of the programs so new administrators and the funding agencies could be "brought up to speed" and convinced of the value of the program. What efforts have your groups made to assess and evaluate the effectiveness of your efforts? More specifically (and most importantly in my view), how have students benefitted from the collaborations you describe? Thank you for a thoughtful and stimulating paper. Bill Pfeiffer William F. Pfeiffer, Professor of Chemistry Utica College of Syracuse University Utica, NY 13502 (315) 792-3071 wpfeiffer@utica.ucsu.edu [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:33:33 -0800 From: john clevenger Subject: Re: Paper 4 - WFP-Assessment & Evaluation At 6:51 AM 2/12/98 -0500, Bill Pfeiffer wrote: > Toward the end of your paper, John, you are sound concerned >about the continuation of the collaborative program(s) in Nevada. >It seems that chances for continuation would be enhanced by >reporting some assessment and evaluation of the programs so >new administrators and the funding agencies could be "brought >up to speed" and convinced of the value of the program. > What efforts have your groups made to assess and evaluate >the effectiveness of your efforts? More specifically (and most >importantly in my view), how have students benefitted from the >collaborations you describe? Bill, You've asked some interesting and important question about the nature of collaborations in general and the TREC Program in particular. The reason I hadn't addressed these more directly in the paper is that I wanted folks to think and ask questions about collaborations generally and how they might work in their setting - as opposed to our particular setting. Since beginning as a pilot program in 1993 the TREC program has had extensive, assessment, evaluation, and reporting (both in formal and informal ways) to the administrators in Nevada as well as the sources of dollars (NSF, Comm. Coll. Pres., and Univ. Research Vice Pres.) We have documented the regular "research products": refereed journal articles, conference presentations, book chapters, new research grants, etc.; by faculty at both the comm. coll. and univ. as well as some by students. We have also documented specific course and curriculum developments in both types of institutions and as I mentioned in an earlier response, student involement in research projects. For example in the curriculum development area, I was one of the original participants in the program in 1994. As a result of my original TREC participation. Our chemistry lab curriculum, content and methodology, is completely revised - and we think, improved. I've also given several presentations on our use of computers and calculator based labs (CBLs), at national meetings as well as locally. Again, all of this is regularly reported. But, (that always comes up, doesn't it) the original NSF solicitation was for nonrenewable funding. Everyone thinks this a great program, as long as someone (else) supplies the dollars. (i.e. "maybe Clevenger could write another grant proposal?", "maybe 'they', whoever that is, can fund it?") Since it's a collaboration, it's always easy to find a "they". In developments since I wrote paper for the conference. The program became a pilot program for a larger initiative that the UCCSN would establish for scholarly or creative activities for all community college faculty, not just those in STEM. It will probably be continued, at some funding level, and expanded to all full-time faculty and all disciplines with UCCSN. With a primary effort to maintain the focus and requirement of collaborative work between at least one community college faculty and one from university or research institute. John John Clevenger Truckee Meadows Comm. Coll. Reno, NV 89512 clevenge@scs.unr.edu 702-673-7197