Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:17:12 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: SHORT QUESTIONS FOR PAPER 3 To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal Re: SHORT QUESTIONS FOR PAPER 3 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It is 8 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time - 1300 GMT) on Friday, January 30. During the next 24 hours you may send SHORT QUESTIONS about Paper 3 - "Silicon Cognition and Teaching Chemistry" by David W. Brooks, Alfred J. Lata, Amjad Abuloum and Rebecca Rohm to the authors and the conference participants. SHORT QUESTIONS are sent to clarify aspects of the paper, obtain more information from the author and/or conference participants and help to promote subsequent discussion. Answers to SHORT QUESTIONS will be sent at the beginning of the discussion on Monday. DISCUSSION of Paper 3 will begin on Monday, February 1 and continue ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ through Thursday February 4. The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh/ChemConf98.html Short Questions should be sent to CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU Please include the PAPER NUMBER, YOUR INITIALS AND THE TOPIC IN THE SUBJECT LINE, e.g. "Paper 3 - EF: Silicon Cognition and the Role of the Student" These messages will be received by the author AND the conference registrants. Please send ASCII only messages with no more than 72 characters per ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ line and no attachments. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ To send comments or questions privately to the author of the paper, send your message to the author's e-mail address given in the paper. Reports of typographical errors, spelling or grammatical errors should be sent directly to the author and not to CHEMCONF. [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:42:32 -0700 From: Gabriela C Weaver Subject: Paper #3: GW - Short Questions I have a couple of short questions for the Silicon Cognition authors: 1. In the section on "The Past" you give some evidence that use of calculators hasn't necessarily had a negative effect on students' math skills (NAEP). In the section on "The Present" you talk primarily about the use of the Web for teaching. In keeping with the flow of ideas developed in your first section, what do you think may be the effects on student understanding of some of the Web-based instruction going on now? What about some of the other software out there that does a variety of things for students, such as linear regressions and graphing? What about the effect on students' attention span and levels of interest? There may be no hard data out there yet on these questions, but it is something I have wondered about. 2. In the section on "The Future", you mention possibly developing high school tests that give students the opportunity to use software. This is an intriguing thought. Do you have some examples of what such a test would consist of? 3. You talk about the Keller Plan and repeatable testing, and mention that the Web could lower the amount of work needed for this. Could you provide more detail here on how that would be done using the Web? Thank you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Gabriela C. Weaver Assistant Professor, Chemistry Univ. of CO, Denver Phone (303)556-3201 Chemistry Dept. Fax (303)556-4776 Campus Box 194 / PO Box 173364 GWeaver@Carbon.CUDenver.Edu Denver, CO 80217-7364 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:19:54 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Short Questions ONLY on Friday, Discussion Begins on Mon To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal Re: Discussion BEGINS on Monday, February 1 Today, Short Questions May be sent to the Registrants. Answers to Questions will be sent and Discussion will begin on Monday, February 1. [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:21:13 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 3 - DR: SQ - Future Role of the Student, Teacher, etc. Re: Paper 3 - DR: SQ - Future Role of the Student, Teacher, School, Computer and Chemist Some Short Questions ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 1. In your paper you consider the effect of "Silicon Cognition" on the Future. a. How will this change how and what students learn? b. How will this change how and what teachers teach? c. What will be the role of the computer and computing in all of this? 2. It seems to me that artificial intelligence and expert systems could be used to teach much of General Chemistry. After all, if computers can be better chess players than Gary Kasparov, perhaps they can be programmed to be better chemistry teachers than many of us - providing individualized instruction, etc. What do you think? 3. Will the present concept of a school be altered? (students and courses being taught at a particular physical location with teachers and facilities being at this central location) What about distance learning? 4. How will "silicon cognition" change what working chemists do and need to know? Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:50:34 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Paper #3: BR SQ's [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] FROM: Bert Ramsay I have several questions: Q#1 (Part I, p.2) Since I do not have copies of Gold's 1979 JCE article, and the 1997 issue of Newweek, I would be interested in seeing a couple of quotes from each that might "illustrate how little has changed in the attitude toward the use of calculators. Q#2 (Part I, p.4) Since I believe the impact of the use of calculators came when they came into the hands of the students, don't you think that "the ultimate magnitude of this [new silicon cognition] change" is not on "interactive teaching" but on "interactive learning"? Q#3(Part II, p.6) Would it not be more appropriate to describe your stoichiometric software program as a kind of retrospective "teaching" than retrospective "tutoring"? It seems to me it is the teacher who shows the student how he (the teacher) would solve the problem, whereas a tutor would concentrate on encouraging the student to show how he (the student) might solve the problem. Teachers are constantly doing retrospective "teaching" on the blackboard but the solution is not retained by many students, who have difficulty repeating the solution on their own. Q#4(Part III, p.6) "In 1993, only one other program ... offered similar tutoring." Depending on how you define a tutorial, this might be a valid claim for that time. I could mention a current software program that provides a true tutorial. [If this is taken as polemical comment - please ignore.] Q#5(Part III, p.8) Why spend time teaching software? Or calculators? If the software is designed properly - you shouldn't have to spend much time at all getting students up and running. They are by and large ahead of the teachers anyway. Takes about 1/2 minute to write and balance an equation and complete a limiting reagent calculation with several software presently available. Bert Ramsay, Emeritus Professor of Chemistry, E. Michigan University. [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:23:29 -0800 From: Bob Bruner Subject: Paper 3 -- BB: SQ 1. The authors of paper 3 indicate that "The Past" began in 1965. Does anyone else out there feel left out??? 2. There is no question that good software helps us to do more complex problems. The more difficult question is whether it helps students "truly understand" what they are doing. Or is it actually good for students to do _some_ work without understanding, then understand later?? Can the authors expand on this issue? 3. One aspect of the Web is its use as a resource. A barrier is finding information and vouching for its quality. What is the long term solution to this? Should someone, such as ACS, not only maintain some list of useful links but accept some responsibility for checking their quality?? (I realize this is not a focus of the paper. If it is too far afield, just ignore it.) 4. I once attended a seminar on the Keller method (mastery learning), and have been intrigued by the possibility of using it in chem. I haven't done anything about it -- probably for the reason the authors state, that it seems like too much work, especially figuring out how to integrate lab work. I would welcome any discussion on this, and would be happy to talk privately with anyone who has actually used a mastery approach to intro or general chem. Bob Bruner, (chemistry degree dates back to pre-history) Contra Costa College, San Pablo CA and UC Berkeley Extension [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:49:18 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re "Paper 3 - WV: Question-Silicon Cognition and the Role of the Student" You describe the Keller Plan in your paper. You also pose reasons why it didn't stay in use. I implemented the Keller Plan in my general chemistry classes for a year many years ago. I never felt the desire to relive that year. Have any of the authors used the Keller Plan in their classes? What were your experiences if you did? I believe present software and technology could eliminate much of the toil that accompanies the system. It's time may have come around. > Dr. Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue WA 98007 > 425-641-2467 > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu luckybel@aol.com > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html > We are all reflections of our previous experience. Everyone we contact will be a reflection of us. [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:22:15 -0600 From: sc18 Subject: Re: Re "Paper 3 - WV: Question-Silicon Cognition and the Role of the Student" Walter Volland wrote: > You describe the Keller Plan in your paper. You also pose > reasons why it didn't stay in use. I implemented the Keller Plan in my > general chemistry classes for a year many years ago. I never felt the > desire to relive that year. Have any of the authors used the Keller > Plan in their classes? What were your experiences if you did? I > believe present software and technology could eliminate much of the toil > that accompanies the system. It's time may have come around. > > > Dr. Walt Volland > > Department of Chemistry > > Bellevue Community College > > Bellevue WA 98007 > > 425-641-2467 > > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > luckybel@aol.com > > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html > > > We are all reflections of our previous experience. > Everyone we contact will be a reflection of us. I've been using formative material in a modified Keller plan for years. It works also in some new software I use to "ascertain what the studnets already know and teach them accordingly." I can import student results in seconds and have been able to produce formative taska that give students experience before they come to class. I can thus know what the class as a whole is having trouble with, and deal with that, and I can know what exprience they have and allow them to "indwell my art" (Polanyi), seeing how I handle the same experience, and how I fit it into my intellectual structure. It works with our studnets very well. Sincerely, KR Fountain [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:23:23 -0600 From: sc18 Subject: Re: Re "Paper 3 - WV: Question-Silicon Cognition and the Role of the Student" sc18 wrote: > Walter Volland wrote: > > > You describe the Keller Plan in your paper. You also pose > > reasons why it didn't stay in use. I implemented the Keller Plan in my > > general chemistry classes for a year many years ago. I never felt the > > desire to relive that year. Have any of the authors used the Keller > > Plan in their classes? What were your experiences if you did? I > > believe present software and technology could eliminate much of the toil > > that accompanies the system. It's time may have come around. > > > > > Dr. Walt Volland > > > Department of Chemistry > > > Bellevue Community College > > > Bellevue WA 98007 > > > 425-641-2467 > > > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > > luckybel@aol.com > > > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html > > > > > We are all reflections of our previous experience. > > Everyone we contact will be a reflection of us. > > I've been using formative material in a modified Keller plan for years. It > works also in some new software I use to "ascertain what the studnets > already know and teach them accordingly." I can import student results in > seconds and have been able to produce formative taska that give students > experience before they come to class. I can thus know what the class as a > whole is having trouble with, and deal with that, and I can know what > exprience they have and allow them to "indwell my art" (Polanyi), seeing how > I handle the same experience, and how I fit it into my intellectual > structure. It works with our studnets very well. > > Sincerely, > > KR Fountain --------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:51:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 3, TOH: Real Data from Real Experiments >From Paper 3: >Use Real Data from Real Experiments When Possible... Stress data analysis. >it is likely that many courses will use at-home lab experiments. I like this idea. Seems great for the future of distance education. Do you know if anyone is working on developing a collection of safe, practical home-based experiments that could generate quantitative data of various types? (Naturally, we want them posted on the Web for all to access freely). >Experimentation; not simulation.... Real data, somehow, always starts off >much less ideal than we might anticipate. What about simulations that use pre-recorded real data, for those cases where the actual instrument is too expensive or hazardous? Do you know of any collections of such data, e.g. spectra of chromatograms of complex environmental or clinical samples, that sort of thing? Loved you paper! Tom -------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry and Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation The University of Maryland at College Park to2@umail.umd.edu http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:02:30 EST From: Walt Volland Subject: Paper 3-WV-Home labs I've been working on home labs for over two years. I've written some home labs that are in the study guide & solutions manual fort the World of Chemistry (Harcourt Brace- Saunders College Pub) The exercises deal with redox, acid-base titration, gas pressure, vapor pressure, molecular structure. There are some internet activities on acid precipitation, second hand smoke and cancer risk, EPA data on radon exposure, plus more I'm actively working on new ones as well. Walt Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu luckybel@aol.com http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:10:35 CST From: Joy Frestedt Subject: Paper 3-JF-Home Labs I am teaching a course entitled "Chemistry and Society" for Minneapolis Community and Technical College and I must say that my students and I are definitely enjoying the work of Walt Volland in the World of Chemistry Series. Kudos and thank you Walt Volland! Dr. Joy Frestedt Minneapolis Community and Technical College Minneapolis, MN 55413 612-341-7091 frest001@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:10:39 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Begin Discussion of Paper 3 To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU Re: BEGIN DISCUSSION OF PAPER 3 It is 8 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time - 1300 GMT) on Monday, February 2. The next 96 hours will be devoted to discussion of Paper 3 - "Silicon Cognition and Teaching Chemistry" by David W. Brooks, Alfred J. Lata, Amjad Abuloum and Rebecca Rohm The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh/ChemConf98.html Messages should be sent to CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU Please include: the PAPER NUMBER, YOUR INITIALS AND THE TOPIC IN THE SUBJECT LINE, e.g. "Paper 3 - EF: Changes from the Present to the Future" These messages will be received by the authors AND the conference registrants. Please send ASCII only messages with no more than 72 characters per ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ line and no attachments. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Appropriately labelled subject lines will be useful in sorting out the various discussion threads. Only discussion which is sent from the SAME MAIL ADDRESS from which you subscribed will be accepted and distributed to participants. Place your name, affiliation and e-mail address at the end of your message. Remember that messages sent to CHEMCONF will be distributed to all participants. As a courtesy to other participants, please keep your messages concise and avoid irrelevant, redundant, and personal comments ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ which are not of general interest. A very helpful technique is to quote a small passage from that paper or message in your response and to place a ">" character at the beginning of each quoted line, e.g.: > We used the....so-and-so...in order to.... We tried that too, but we found that.... 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To resume receipt of messages, send the message: SET CHEMCONF MAIL to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU Signing Off ^^^^^^^^^^^ In the event you wish to sign off CHEMCONF, please send the one line message: SIGNOFF CHEMCONF to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU Note that each of the above commands is sent to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD and NOT CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU --------------------------------------- SCHEDULE ^^^^^^^^ February 2 to 5 - Discussion of Paper 3 February 6 to 12 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 4 February 13 to 19 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 5 February 20 to 26 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 6 February 27 to Mar. 5 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 7 March 6 to 12 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 8 March 13 to 19 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 9 March 20 to 26 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 10 April 10 to 16 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 11 April 17 to 23 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 12 April 24 to May 15 - Evaluation and Discussion of Selected Topics If you need HELP, please send an e-mail message to: Tom O'Haver at to2@umail.umd.edu and NOT TO CHEMCONF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ======================================================================= [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:24:20 -0500 From: Theresa Julia Zielinski Subject: Re: Begin Discussion of Paper 3 Hi Don You may wish to edit your begin file to show the chemconf web site at http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/Chemistry/ChemConference/ChemConf98/ Sincerely Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Niagara University Niagara University, NY 14109 theresaz@localnet.com http://www.niagara.edu/~tjz/ 716-639-0762 (H - voice, voice mail and fax) 716-286-8257 (O - voice and voice mail) [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:22:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Paper 3, TOH: Teach the Details of Software Use >From Paper 3: >Teach the Details of Software Use. Teachers who teach software use in >science universally report that considerable time must be spent on >the details of the software use. This is true whether the software >is a spreadsheet or a symbolic mathematics program such as Maple. This has been my experience, also. In a non-science major intro chem course, I did a 4-hour "intro to spreadsheets" unit (http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/UMD-Projects/MCTP/Courses/ PhysicalScience/ClarisWorks.html) to support a 4-hour unit on atmospheric dillution (http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/ UMD-Projects/MCTP/Courses/PhysicalScience/TheAirWeBreathe.txt). All of my student had USED spreadsheet programs before but none had actually CREATED their own spreadsheets from scratch. I've also used an introduction written by Terry Gray at Colorado State (http://www.calvin.edu/~grayt/intro_to_spreadsheets.html) For more advanced courses I use TK Solver, which requires a brief intro to the software (http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/ Chemistry/ChemConference/Chem623/Chem623.html). But, over a semester, the initial time spent on software use is paid back. As the models become more complex, however, I admit that I allow the students access to previously-created models - just because of the time it takes to type in and verify all the equations and variables. It's a very error-prone task. I'm more interested in having them USE the models to discover trends. I feel a little guilty about this, because I know they'd learn more if I forced them to create everything for themselves from scratch. Tom -------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry and Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation The University of Maryland at College Park to2@umail.umd.edu http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:31:00 -0500 From: George Long Subject: GRL: Re: Paper 3, TOH: Teach the Details of Software Use >As the models become more complex, however, I admit that I allow >the students access to previously-created models - just because >of the time it takes to type in and verify all the equations and >variables. It's a very error-prone task. I'm more interested in >having them USE the models to discover trends. I feel a little >guilty about this, because I know they'd learn more if I forced >them to create everything for themselves from scratch. > >Tom One way around some of this is to allow students to cut and paste from example documents. Particularly in the more difficult tasks. The keying in of equations is not so important as the development of the process. This is much like using the IMSL subroutine library within a program. I think the equation engines, like mathcad and mathematica are a little more convenient for this, but the same could be done with a spreadsheet. Mathcad allows a cut and paste oriented "substitute for variable function". Here students can easily combine equations, do derivations, etc. The other advantage is that it is very easy to show the student what to do to solve the problem. There is no confusion as to variable and their meaning, once the problem has been successfully solved, communication is enhanced, in my view, because everyone is working from the same reference point. Understanding of what the mathematics means is essential (understanding what an integral does), but being able to do the algorithmic work (i.e. solving an integral by parts, or substitution, or completing the square) is not necessary. **************************************************************************** Dr. George R. Long grlong@grove.iup.edu http://www.iup.edu/~grlong/ Department of Chemistry Indiana University of PA Indiana PA, 15705 **************************************************************************** [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:38:08 -0500 From: Theresa Julia Zielinski Subject: paper 3 tjz - doing it all themselves Dear Colleagues TOH wrote >I know they'd learn more if I forced >them to create everything for themselves from scratch This is an interesting and accurate observation and I can appreciate it as I too think this way. However, in the context of a 3 credit course and multiple demands on student time and academic resources a compromise is necessary. I like giving students some stuff to do from scratch and some to do with templates. The best templates have some interactive components so that the students don't get the 'lecture numbness' disease while using software to learn concepts. It seems we must maintain a balance between developing skills with a tool, using a tool adequately vs. exquisitely, and learning efficiency. At the end of several years of study students will be able to use many tools adequately and only a few exquisitely. With their adequate skills in most areas given the right materials to work with they can learn a lot very quickly. They can even become exquisite users of new tools on their own if they wish. Cheers Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Niagara University Niagara University, NY 14109 theresaz@localnet.com http://www.niagara.edu/~tjz/ 716-639-0762 (H - voice, voice mail and fax) 716-286-8257 (O - voice and voice mail) [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:18:31 -0600 From: "David W. Brooks" Subject: Answers to Short Questions 1 Response to Tom O'Haver: >>Use Real Data from Real Experiments When Possible... >>Stress data analysis. It is likely that many courses will >>use at-home lab experiments. > >I like this idea. Seems great for the future of distance >education. >Do you know if anyone is working on developing a collection >of safe, practical home-based experiments that could >generate quantitative >data of various types? (Naturally, we want them posted on >the Web for all to access freely). There was a post about this at the conference (see Volland). Lois Fruen has published an interesting manual filled with such activities. John Mauch (MicroMole Scientific) also has resources for this. There is great concern about legal issues related to home experimentation. > >>Experimentation; not simulation.... Real data, somehow, >>always starts off much less ideal than we might >>anticipate. > >What about simulations that use pre-recorded real data, for >those cases where the actual instrument is too expensive or >hazardous? Do you know of any collections of such data, > >e.g. spectra of chromatograms of complex environmental or >clinical samples, that sort of thing? We're so old that we remember being taught about 'blunders.' Twenty years ago we'd call the screw-ups, and today's language is likely to be more colorful still. Those events -- so important to learning -- are hard to simulate. However, the notion of gathering real datasets makes considerable sense, especially for complex systems. We know of no such databases. Comment from W. Volland: >I've been working on home labs for over two years. I've >written some home labs that are in the study guide & >solutions manual fort the World of Chemistry (Harcourt >Brace- Saunders College Pub) > >The exercises deal with redox, acid-base titration, gas >pressure, vapor pressure, molecular structure. There are >some internet activities on >acid precipitation, second >hand smoke and cancer risk, EPA data on radon exposure, >plus more > >I'm actively working on new ones as well. > >wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu >http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html From: : Gabriela C Weaver >1. In the section on "The Past" you give some evidence that >use of calculators hasn't necessarily had a negative effect >on students' math skills (NAEP). In the section on "The >Present you talk primarily about the use of the Web for >teaching. In keeping with the flow of ideas developed in >your first section, what do you think may be the effects on >student understanding of some of the Web-based instruction >going on now? No idea. This needs to be studied. BUT, one confounding factor will be similar to studies of PLATO. Evaluators -- who used it for hours or days -- hated it because the interface took too long to learn. Students who were long- term users tended to really like it. I saw this written up many years ago. Early studies of Web-based teaching are likely to be misleading. This will be especially true as user experience grows, and as courses are designed for the Web rather than just dumped out onto the Web. >What about some of the other software out there that does a >variety of things for students, such as linear regressions > and graphing? What about the effect on students' >attention span and levels of interest? There may be no >hard data out there yet on these questions, but it is >something I have wondered about. We see this for graphing calculators in local schools. Two years ago we successfully repurposed some block grant money and got several local schools up and running with graphing calculators in chemistry. The students using these devices outwardly seem engaged and very attentive. The kinds of experimentation going on in local schools would put many universities to shame. Robert Curtright, Robert Mann, and especially Kent Crippen have been active in developing materials. During the summer, 1996, we put on a workshop at Sacred Heart University in Fairfield, CT (for Dr. Babu George, one of America's truly great chemistry educators). Charlie DiSapio and a colleague went from that workshop to change over essentially ALL of the lab activities at their school. Charlie was very pleased with his first year of experience, now half way into the second year. Pat Noel of California had developed similar plans, in her case trying integration of mathematics content with chemistry content. She claims considerable success. Also locally in Lincoln, NE, other teachers have used calculators for integration. Lois Mayo of Pius HS in Lincoln teaches the 'ABC course' (algebra biology combo). We authors can't imagine that we know ALL of what is going on, let alone even a tiny fraction of that activity. Therefore, if our experience is predictive of what will happen over the next 5 or 10 years, watch out for those new students! By way of more background, the University of Nebraska was early to teach Mathematica in some undergraduate courses but used graphing calculators in calculus for the first time only when they became integrated into AP Calculus. It also probably is true that another local chemistry teacher, Ed Lyons, has embarrassed more than one chemistry department in this region into using graphing calculators in undergraduate chemistry laboratory. >2. In the section on "The Future", you mention possibly >developing high school tests that give students the >opportunity to use software. This is an intriguing >thought. Do you have some examples of what such a test >would consist of? Imagine the end of chapter problems from nearly any mainstream general chemistry course sent to students who, at the same time, could use Bert Ramsay's software. >3. You talk about the Keller Plan and repeatable testing, >and mention that the Web could lower the amount of work >needed for this. Could you provide more detail here on how >that would be done using the Web? It is a rather straightforward matter to create 'shells' that send out "problem" oriented tests in such a way that these can be generated on the fly, level-linked to individual students, and performance recorded for individual students. I have all the parts of this running at my server, but not yet implemented in a course. Try these URLs: http://www.cci.unl.edu/Chemistry/APEqn/GetAPTest.html http://www.cci.unl.edu/Chemistry/APEqn/GetAPTest.html please report failures to dbrooks1@unl.edu; this weekend an AOL user reported not being able to get quizzes. From: Donald Rosenthal >1. In your paper you consider the effect of "Silicon >Cognition" on the Future. > > a. How will this change how and what students learn? Beats us. > b. How will this change how and what teachers teach? Teachers will teach more software use. Some content will change drastically. For example, the algebraic method of balancing equations will likely rears its ugly head again. Most of all, assessments will change drastically. Students will use computers during assessment, and the assessments will evolve into tools that look as if they need computers. > c. What will be the role of the computer and computing >in all of this? This will be the BIG change. Students will have computers at their desktops during essentially all learning sessions and examinations. >2. It seems to me that artificial intelligence and expert >systems could be used to teach much of General Chemistry. >After all, if >computers can be better chess players than >Gary Kasparov, perhaps they can be programmed to be better >chemistry teachers than many of us - providing >individualized instruction, etc. > What do you think? There have been several attempts at a system like this. For example, Betsy Kean, Cathy Middlecamp, and another person at Wisconsin tried something like this (ChemProf). There are two ways to looks at this. On the one hand, you can never create an expert tutor that is MORE than the best chemistry computational system, so failure at creating the ultimate tutor is inevitable. On the other hand, we'll always be teaching concepts successively and, as the skills of people grow, we can imagine expert tutors working at building concepts along a pathway for learners as they become experts -- who use the penultimate expert software. It probably is possible to point to examples of this in medical training. That is, physicians don't often turn to expert systems. They are trained by expert systems to be less effective than are the best expert systems. It is truly remarkable what they carry around in their heads, and how deeply they address problems before turning to software. A few years back, Apple introduced Apple Guides. These would offer help stepping users through software, and some folks spoke about create tutorials using them. I think this sort of system will prevail in the end, the problem always being that having a computer tutor you in some skill probably means the computer can and, therefore, should be accomplishing that skill. >3. Will the present concept of a school be altered? Yes. > (students and courses being taught at a particular >physical location with teachers and facilities being at >this central location) > What about distance learning? Distance learning -- learners at home -- will play an ever increasing role. It's a rather extraordinary state of affairs. For the most part it is an easy matter to show marked changes in people over the years they spend in college or graduate school. Almost never, however, can we identify a single course or event that was a turning point. In fact, careful scrutiny of such claims is likely to remove nearly all such claims. (That is, learners neglect the spade work that went into preparing them for important learning moments.) Also, for nearly all formal schooling, what is learned goes far beyond formal instruction. Nevertheless, in college at least, what we package and sell are courses. Now this portion of what we do is up for grabs -- especially in large enrollment "cash cow" courses. >4. How will silicon cognition" change what working >chemists do and need to know? It's already changed. Just look at what synthetic chemists at the cutting edge do today, and compare that with 15 years ago. David W. Brooks dbrooks@unlinfo.unl.edu 118 Henzlik-UNL (402)472-2018 Lincoln, NE 68588-0355 FAX (402)472-8317 http://www.cci.unl.edu [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:19:41 -0600 From: "David W. Brooks" Subject: Answers to questions 2 [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] From: Bert Ramsay >Q#1 (Part I, p.2) Since I do not have copies of Gold's 1979 >JCE article, and the 1997 issue of Newsweek, I would be >interested in seeing >a couple of quotes from each that >might "illustrate how little has changed in the attitude >toward the use of calculators. M. Gold, JChEd 526, 56, 1979 "The past several years have convinced me that a disproportionately large number of students enrolled in the science majors freshman chemistry course are seriously deficient in many arithmetic skills. Beyond this, I have observed a general difficulty in performing those tasks which are nourished by a background of practice in mental arithmetic. ^Ê" D. Hunsaker, Newsweek, 11/3/97, p.20 "I sigh inwardly as I watch yet another student, this one a ninth grader, struggle with an advanced math problem that requires simple multiplication. He mentally grapples with 5x6, looks longingly at the off-limits calculator on the corner of my desk, and finally guesses the answer: '35.'" >Q#2 (Part I, p.4) Since I believe the impact of the use of >calculators came when they came into the hands of the >students, don't you think that "the ultimate magnitude of >this [new silicon cognition] change" is not on >"interactive teaching" but on "interactive learning"? Learning is important. Learning without teachers rarely happens, however. It's really important to keep that in mind as you contemplate distance learning. >Q#3(Part II, p.6) Would it not be more appropriate to >describe your stoichiometric software program as a kind of >retrospective "teaching" than retrospective "tutoring"? It >seems to me it is the teacher who shows the student how he >(the teacher) would solve the problem, whereas a tutor >would concentrate on encouraging the student to show how he >(the student) might solve the problem. Teachers are >constantly doing retrospective "teaching" on the blackboard >but the solution is not by many students, who have >difficulty repeating the solution on their own. Angels and pins. The software is intended to give an answer more than to tutor. That's the point of silicon cognition. When asked, it gives one way to get that answer. Students rarely use the tutoring. DWB uses it all the time. When he practices on end of chapter problems, he quickly set things up -- sometimes incorrectly. He does this regularly just to see what percentage of end of chapter problems can be handled with powerful software. >Q#4(Part III, p.6) "In 1993, only one other program ... >offered similar tutoring." Depending on how you define a >tutorial, this might be a valid claim for that time. I >could mention a current software program that provides a >true tutorial. I think it is still fair to say that only Stoichiometer and MacNumerics will show a solution for ANY problem entered, and that both will offer a means as to how that solution was arrived at. Both work for ALL entered problems, not just a teacher-selected subset. >Q#5(Part III, p.8) Why spend time teaching software? Or >calculators? If the software is designed properly - you >shouldn't have to spend much time at all getting students >up and running. They are by and large ahead of the teachers >anyway. Takes about 1/2 minute to write and balance an >equation and complete a limiting reagent calculation with >several software presently available. Not supported by evidence. For example, see the Runge dissertation regarding use of Maple at DWB Web-site. http://www.cci.unl.edu/Chemistry/APEqn/GetAPTest.html Also, see the O'Haver comment posted early on 2/2/98. From: Bob Bruner >1. The authors of paper 3 indicate that "The Past" began in >1965. Does anyone else out there feel left out??? According to the "Discovery of the elements," silicon was discovered in the early to mid 1800s. Would that help the left-out feeling? >2. There is no question that good software helps us to do >more complex problems. The more difficult question is >whether it helps students "truly understand" what they are >doing. Or is it actually good for students to do_some_ work >without understanding, then understand later?? Can the >authors expand on this issue? What is true understanding? How does it differ from partial understanding or lucky guessing or shrewd guessing? You can't use powerful software if you don't know what you're doing. See the Runge dissertation, for example. http://www.cci.unl.edu/CVs/Dissertations/APRDiss/DissTitl.ht ml One doesn't just pick up the mouse, hold it near one's mouth, and utter the problem. There was a very short period of time when one of us (DWB) worked on such a system. That is, speak in the end of chapter problem, and out comes an answer. Frank Hoggard of Southwest Missouri State described the basis for such an approach several years ago. Of course, this approach hides a big trap. The trap is this -- the end of chapter problems already come parsed. Worldly success goes to those who are able to restate real world problems in the language of end- of-chapter language. Once that is done, tools can be used to solve them. Once this point is appreciated, then building a "You say the problem -- it solves that problem" software is just showing off. >3. One aspect of the Web is its use as a resource. A >barrier is finding information and vouching for its >quality. What is the long term solution to this? Should >someone, such as ACS, not only maintain some list of useful >links but accept some responsibility for checking their >quality?? (I realize this is not a focus of the paper. If >it is too far afield, just ignore it.) Consider this ignored. "Die entropy der Welt strebt eine Maximum zu." That was written on a machine that automatically delivered premeasured portions of punch invented by Martin Friedlander and used annually at the Columbia Chemistry Department Christmas Party. The sentiment holds ever more true today than back in the early '60s. >4. I once attended a seminar on the Keller method (mastery >learning), and have been intrigued by the possibility of >using it in chem. I haven't done anything about it -- >probably for the reason the authors state, that it seems >like too much work, especially figuring out how to >integrate lab work. I would welcome any discussion on this, >and would be happy to talk privately with anyone who has >actually used a mastery approach to intro or general chem. Several folks have tried Keller Plan. DWB still uses repeatable testing in graduate courses. From: Walt Volland >You describe the Keller Plan in your paper. You also pose >reasons why it didn't stay in use. I implemented the >Keller Plan in my general chemistry classes for a year many >years ago. I never felt the desire to relive that year. >Have any of the authors used the Keller Plan in their >classes? What were your experiences if you did? I >believe present software and technology could eliminate >much of the toil that accompanies the system. It's time >may have come around. DWB uses repeatable testing. Once you see software that essentially publishes a unique advanced ACS DivCHED General Chemistry Test on demand, and grades that exam automatically both with part credit for short answers and specifically referenced tutoring, you'll see how one of the major problems of Keller Plan instruction has been solved. Glimpses of such a system were referenced above. David W. Brooks dbrooks@unlinfo.unl.edu 118 Henzlik-UNL (402)472-2018 Lincoln, NE 68588-0355 FAX (402)472-8317 http://www.cci.unl.edu [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:03:16 -0500 From: Theresa Julia Zielinski Subject: paper3-tjz-learning and teachers David you wrote in your response to question 2 from Bert Ramsey >Learning without teachers rarely >happens, however. I find this an interesting statement. Please elaborate on the role of the teacher and why learning rarely happens without one. Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Niagara University Niagara University, NY 14109 theresaz@localnet.com http://www.niagara.edu/~tjz/ 716-639-0762 (H - voice, voice mail and fax) 716-286-8257 (O - voice and voice mail) [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:34:26 -0800 From: Maureen Scharberg Subject: Paper 3, MS: Keller Plan For the last seven years, I have used the Keller Plan in my intro chemistry course for everybody (science,non-science, engineering, undeclared majors). I specifically use it in weekly quizzes in which students scoring below a B- can retest the following week to improve their quiz score. Please note that the highest retest score is a B+. Yes, it is a lot of work, but my research indicates that students do learn chemistry and improve their confidence in chemistry with this method. This quiz system is not on computers due to the sad fact that we don't have enough computers for the students and cannot assume that ALL students have access to computers off-campus. One drawback: some students take the first quiz just to see the type of questions that I will ask, then they study and take the retest in which they usually do not perform well. These students quickly find themselves in a downward spiral because they become further and further behind in the course. They seem to forget that new concepts in chemistry build on the old concepts, especially in a spiral-based curriculum. Sincerely, Maureen Scharberg Department of Chemistry San Jose State University San Jose, CA 95192-0101 e-mail: scharbrg@pacbell.net [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:21:34 -0500 From: Alfred Lata Subject: Re: Answers to questions 2 In response to the comment Q#2 (Parte 1, p.4) (in part : > don't you think that "the ultimate magnitude of >this [new silicon cognition] change" is not on >"interactive teaching" but on "interactive learning"? and Dave Brooks' (my colleague and co-author) response: >Learning is important. Learning without teachers rarely >happens, however. I agree with the former, and would comment on Brooks response: For the student, learning is the only thing. Teaching (forgive me) is incidental, and simply one way for the learner to learn. The teacher is a learning facilitator, and in many cases one of many sources of information. But to empower a student to be able to learn is the most important thing that an instructor can impart. A teacher can 'teach' a whole class, but it is when a student has a question, built upon his/her interest. lack of understanding, curiosity, etc that learning grows. Compare the student to the interested music student or athlete, with instructor or coach: if they do not work or practice or take advice, they will not develop or succeed. Do coaches tolerate the level of interest we see in the classroom? Unfortunately, "Learning without teachers rarely happens." We hope to impart a joy and excitement of our subject that will make the student want to learn; the excited,interested student does so. We will use whatever tools we consider most effective to help the student learn, be they humanoid or siliconoid based. Alfred J. Lata, Dept of Chemistry, Univ of Kansas, Lawrence KS lata@caco3.chem.ukans.edu [ Part 12: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:27:12 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: Paper 3 -WV:Time is ripe for Keller Plan I recall the Keller plan as a "mastery" oriented system. Successes at each step of the course would permit passage to the next topic. No one could move to the following level without demonstrating competence in the previous one. This mastery was indicated by quiz scores. The incentive for students to learn and study was linked to their continued possibility of success no matter how badly they failed initially. The number of opportunities or chances to take a quiz would be unlimited in theory. The number of chances to take or retake exams/quizzes in each of the levels could be arbitraily cut off, but that seems to be counter to the idea of "mastery" . I was overwhelmed by the fact that I didn't limit the number of times a student could take a quiz. Some took as many as 8 quizzes before they could move on. What was also a burden was the fact that the self paced nature of the progress makes a hash out of lectures and discussions sessions. The course was fine for some folks who ran ahead of the pace for the main group and for the main stream of students. The people who had problems fell behind but lways had a chance. Coupling the lecture to a lab was difficult. The lab schedule was fine for most students but the labs at my school were set to a particular calendar. This clearly is no problem if the lecture and lab are independent. I like the idea of the Keller system immensely. The implementation is another matter. If the student hs to complete the class by the end of the semester or quarter the system breaks down. If the student can continue to study and work at his/her own pace then the Keller plan can work just beatifully. Keller is the administrator's delight. Students are naturally prepared to achieve a satisfactory level of performance. Dropout rates should fall to a trickle. The only question would be the threshold for competence. Present day software and book keeping programs can make the multiple quizzes and game keeping a piece of cake. I think the real obstacle is the lock step completion of courses. Walt [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:05:43 -0800 From: Evelyn Palmer Subject: EP - paper 3, Keller Plan A question to the authors; In section 3, The Future, you state: "Much current work in Chemistry Education still aims at skill training in areas where computer tool use is orders of magnitude more appropriate." What areas do you mean? You describe using software for stoichiometry calculations, but what else did you have in mind? About the Keller Plan; I haven't encountered discussion of it for several years, and I would have to read it again before a undertaking a thorough discussion, but I would like to make two observations: a) I recall that my department rejected the Keller Plan because the use of learning objectives as a way of defining a chemistry course gave the impression that a student needed to know only specific facts and solutions to specific problems, and would have to answer exam questions equally specific in order to pass the course. Higher level thinking which required the student to solve unfamiliar problems by analogy would not be considered "fair". The teachers who considered using it were not at all reluctant to do the hard work necessary to implement it, but disagreed with the value of the plan. You say: "The chemistry curriculum has become focused on testable skills." This may be true, but I 'm sorry it has come to that. b) Concerning the Keller Plan, you state that repeatable testing by using computers makes mastery learning feasible. I disagree with the Mastery Learning idea " ...until mastery is demonstrated, don't allow work on later material." I believe that working on a particular concept stuck at the same level until one has mastered it is counter-productive. The student who has some grasp of a problem at level two, for example, will understand level two more easily when trying to work at level three. I will illustrate using acid-base equilibrium. I would call level one differentiating between weak and strong acids and bases. Level two involves proving whether an acid is weak or strong by knowing the concentration and initial pH. At this point the student calculates the Ka if the acid is weak. This step solidifies the weak/strong concept. In level three the student plots the titration curve of a weak acid, following the titration with a pH meter. The first and second levels are now clear (weak because of the initial pH and the pH at the equivalence point), but the student must now calculate the pH at the equivalence point. At about the fourth level the student must demonstrate that the solution is a buffer in the region around one pH unit on either side of the pKa. Performing buffer calculations is now easier when the student verifies them by referring to the graph in step three. I am not satisfied the student understands acid-base equilibrium until he or she can do the calculations and plot the graph of the conjugate base of that same weak acid, and can also analyze the titration graph of an unknown acid, base, buffer, or acid mixture. The student may have to spiral through all of these levels for more complete understanding, returning to levels two and one if necessary. I believe many students must take one step backward before taking two forward. Sometimes it is necessary to take two backward before taking one step forward. In the end, we hope he or she works out the complete picture with whatever assistance we may need to provide. Doesn't this represent the consolidation of knowledge? Have I misrepresented the Keller Plan? Regards, Evelyn Palmer Evelyn Palmer Laboratory Instructor Department of Chemistry email: evelyn@sfu.ca Simon Fraser University phone (O):(604) 291-3537 Burnaby British Columbia V5A 1S6 fax: (604) 291-3765 CANADA http://www.sfu.ca/chemistry/personel/palmer.htm [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:23:21 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Paper 3-WV- Is time ripe for Keller? [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] On Monday Feb. 2 Maureen Scharberg wrote >For the last seven years, I have used the Keller Plan in my intro >chemistry course for everybody (science,non-science, engineering, >undeclared majors). I specifically use it in weekly quizzes in which >students scoring below a B- can retest the following week to improve >their quiz score. Please note that the highest retest score >is a B+. snip > I think it is great that you are using the Keller system. I wish I could make it fit the arbitrary limitations imposed by lock step registration and lab schedules. How do you deal with lab schedules? Are your lectures and labs linked? Are the quizzes multiple choice or story problem essay style? Are the classes set up with open enrollment, so they can finish at any time? I recall the Keller plan as a "mastery" oriented system. Successes at each step of the course permit passage to the next topic. No one could move to the following level without demonstrating competence in the previous one. This mastery was indicated by quiz scores. How did you decide on the B- as the cut off? The incentive for students to learn and study was linked to their continued possibility of success no matter how badly they failed initially. The number of opportunities or chances to take a quiz would be unlimited in theory. The number of chances to take or retake exams/quizzes in each of the levels could be arbitraily cut off, but that seems to be counter to the idea of "mastery" . I was overwhelmed by the fact that I didn't limit the number of times a student could take a quiz. Some took as many as 8 quizzes before they could move on. What was also a burden was the fact that the self paced nature of the progress makes a hash out of lectures and discussions sessions. The course was fine for some folks who ran ahead of the pace for the main group and for the main stream of students. The people who had problems fell behind but lways had a chance. Coupling the lecture to a lab was difficult. The lab schedule was fine for most students but the labs at my school were set to a particular calendar. This clearly is no problem if the lecture and lab are independent. I like the idea of the Keller system. The implementation is another matter. If the student has to complete the class by the end of the semester/quarter the system breaks down. If the student can continue to study and work at his/her own pace then the Keller plan can work just beautifully. Keller is the administrator's delight. Students are automatically prepared to achieve a satisfactory level of performance. Dropout rates should fall to a trickle. The only question would be the threshold for competence. Present day software and book keeping programs can make the multiple quizzes and grade keeping a piece of cake. I think the real obstacle is the lock step completion of courses plus how the competencies are established. Walt [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:39:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Paper 3, TOH, Re: Answers to Short Questions 1 Dave Brooks wrote: >We're so old that we remember being taught about 'blunders.' >Twenty years ago we'd call the screw-ups, and today's >language is likely to be more colorful still. Those events >-- so important to learning -- are hard to simulate. True enough! How else can use learn important scientific principles such as: "It works better when you plug it in and turn it on"? Simulations do not typically allow the students to make all the "stupid" (but instructive!) mistakes that the real world allows. Moreover, even the best simulations can't exactly capture the look and feel of the real thing. But simulations don't have to *replace* real experiments. The last time I taught my "Electronics for Chemists" course (with a real lab), I had the students do assignments on computer simulations of the circuits they has just constructed the week before in lab. In the lab they make all the expected practical mistakes, which slow their progess but provide invaluable learning opportunities. When using the simulations afterwards, they can focus on the behaviour of the circuit and verify that the theory (upon which the simulations are based) does indeed work much like the real thing. The assignments require them to explore the effect ofd variable parameters and try more "what if" situations that would be possible in lab. One might think that the use of a simulation after a real lab experiment would be redundant or at least anti-climactical. But many of the students have said, in evaluation questionaires, that doing the simulations showed them that they didn't REALLY understand everything they should have and that this forced them to think harder about what was going on. Of course, this does *not* prove that they would not have profited even more by spending the same time on some *other* instructional activity - doing more labs, working out the math by hand, or listening to me lecture some more.... Tom -------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry and Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation The University of Maryland at College Park to2@umail.umd.edu http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:58:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Paper 3, TOH: High-tech classes in low-tech classrooms One of the problems I have is that all my classes are assigned to generic, low-tech, blackboard-based classrooms. It takes too long to borrow and check out computer and projection equipment for each class - just to have to return it all at the end of the hour. I do *not* own my own projection system (sigh!). As a result, I seldom do computer things in class, but rather make my high-tech assignments as homework. Sometimes I reserve one of the instructional labs in another location, but that too takes advance planning and creates the additional problem of site licenses and installing software on somebody else's computers. Uggh! These limitations create problems as we rely more and more on computers to do the mindless mechanics of numerical solutions. Anyone have any clever ideas how to integrate low-tech class time more effectively into the high-tech mode? Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry and Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation The University of Maryland at College Park to2@umail.umd.edu http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh If a computer can do it, it is by definition a mindless task. [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:53:06 -0500 From: Michael Chejlava Subject: Re: Paper 3, TOH: High-tech classes in low-tech classrooms There are now several companies that produce laptop computers which can be placed on an overhead projector. I have not had a chance to try one yet, but they now cost only about $3,000 for a 133MHz Pentium system. Also, I have to get in my $0.02. I have found that most of my students have more problems with the math dictated graphical calculators than they are worth. If they heven't done a particular operation in the last few weeks it is easy to forget which cryptic labels are the correct ones to use. It is time to see these monstrosities for what they are, crippled handheld computers! To reiterate a comment I made in the summer, it is time to get a laptop computer for each student. It is far easier to use a graphics program and you get much better results than a graphing calculator. The number of "laptop universities" is now at about 30 in the U.S. alone. Australian schools are even farther ahead. The cost is fairly high, about $500 per semester, but schools following this plan are reporting increased enrollments and retention, and just think of all that space you can regain when you get rid of your computer labs which are often only available to students half the day or less. Many of the schools that have adopted universal laptops for students have tuitions in the $1,000 to $2,000 per semester, so this is not limited to the high priced schools. -- Michael Chejlava Department of Chemistry & Environmental Science Lake Superior State University Sault Sainte Marie, MI [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:00:29 EST From: Karen Timberlake Subject: Re: Paper 3, TOH: High-tech classes in low-tech classrooms One possibility is the use of transparencies if you have an overhead projector. I do use Powerpoint slides on a presentation system, but I have also run all the modules off as transparencies. This gets away from the chalk board and allows me to insert short learning checks for students to work on without having to write them out on the board. I also handout the powerpoint notes so students have more time to think about the ideas and do the work. Thus my class time has become more student centered. Karen Timberlake Prof. of Chemistry Los Angeles Valley College Van Nuys, CA [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:10:00 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: Answers to questions 2 [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Al Lata comments: > But to empower a student to be able to learn is the most > important thing that an instructor can impart. .. > Compare the student to the interested music student or athlete, with > instructor or coach: if they do not work or practice or take advice, > they will not develop or succeed. Do coaches tolerate the level of > interest we see in the classroom?.... > We will use whatever tools we consider most effective to help the > student learn, be they humanoid or siliconoid based. === My point was that the new Si-based "tools" can assist student student learning - at least for many types of basic problem solving - more efficiently than the teacher. The teacher who could serve as the "facilitator" or "motivator" seldom has the time, or resources to serve as a coach, or better yet as a personal tutor to be sure they benefit from their practice and hard work. So I tried to design software design to facilitate student understanding, and develop basic problem solving skills: 1) Using the chemical calculator as a tool, a student's understanding of how they solved the problem would be reinfoced every time they completed a calculation, since both the solution (setup) and answer are displayed. 2) A "Personal Tutor" is provided for those beginning students who need to develop their paper and pencil problem solving skills. You might visualize the tutor sitting next to the student providing suggestions for correcting incorrect answers when asked, or if sometime, actually setting up the solution to the problem step by step (short of the final answer). The tutor is also keeping track of how the student is progressing toward matering the problem solving skill. I believe most of the learning, i.e. understanding, comes not from the teacher but when the student continues to practice and gets feedback as to sources of errors and mistakes. Most, if not all of us learn by making mistakes. The teacher, of course, can help to point out some common mistakes - but these suggestions are not fully absorbed until the student has to work a problem on their own. The teacher, tutor, or others provide some of the feedback the student needs to hear to change the behavior that blocks success [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:40:50 -0600 From: "David W. Brooks" Subject: Replies and Comments Evelyn Palmer >You say: "The chemistry curriculum has become focused >on testable skills." This may be true, but I 'm sorry >it has come to that. Chemistry is based upon testable hypotheses. I'm GLAD it's that way! By way of explanation rather than justification, that's why chemistry courses tend to be so "objectively" testable. >"Much current work in Chemistry Education still aims >at skill training in areas where computer tool use is orders >of magnitude more appropriate." > >What areas do you mean? You describe using software >for stoichiometry calculations, but what else did you >have in mind? I would consider the naming through to structure programs examples of changes in organic chemistry, for example. Try that ChemInnovation software. It's remarkable! For example, it's not unusual to see an organic question where the student is given a structure and asked to name the substance represented by that structure. Theresa Julia Zielinski >you wrote in your response to question 2 from Bert Ramsey > >Learning without teachers rarely happens, however. > >I find this an interesting statement. Please elaborate >on the role of the teacher and why learning rarely >happens without one. Over the years I've managed to convince myself that I'm fully self-regulating -- good learning strategies, and the will and drive to apply them. It's especially true when I try to learn something new and foreign to me that a teacher is really helpful. For example, I often attend faculty development activites on my campus -- that's where I was this morning. Take, for example, the notion of cooperative learning. On the one hand, that's been a part of my life. For example, I've written a few papers that have had more than 10 co-authors. They wouldn't be there if cooperation and varied contribution weren't important. Yet, I was raised in an environment of chemistry teaching where cooperative learning was tantamount to cheating. (Without a 'study group' in which the homework problems were divided up and each group member became a specialist in one of them, I NEVER would have PASSED graduate chemical thermodynamics, a course in which I received an A+. I'd STILL be working those &%$*# problem sets. I didn't think of that as cooperative learning then; I sure do now! We TAUGHT each other how to do the problems.) In fact, it was TEACHERS who TAUGHT ME about cooperative learning, got me interested in looking at certain aspects of it, and encouraged me by my HOT BUTTON, "they'll learn more and better this way," that got me into the subject. Today, I think I'm fairly well self-regulating in this area. I can read a paper or listen to a description, conceptualize it in a manner that believe to be satisfactory, and either integrate into my knowledge base about cooperative learning or discard it. The POINT: Teachers (in this case, UNL colleagues) got me started learning about cooperative learning. There have been many times when I'd walk into a chemistry colleague's office and say, "what does this mean." They'd tell me. No disequilibrium (other than my own curioisity). Very little constructivism (perhaps a few questions on my part). No quiz and no homework. I've learned more about designing good experiments in learning outcomes from my son and my daughter than from any colleague or book. Both in their mid-twenties, they have become my teachers. Finally, there are a few folks who contribute to the ChemEd discussion list who, no matter the topic, I read what they say. Ted Labuza" is one of them, for example. Perhaps my view of a teacher is that s/he need only be someone who helps me to learn, rather than someone who engages me in a formal activity such as lecturing to me. Walt Volland >I think it is great that you are using the Keller system. I >wish I could make it fit the arbitrary limitations imposed >by lock step registration and lab schedules. How do you >deal with lab schedules? Are your lectures and labs linked? >Are the quizzes multiple choice or story problem essay style? >Are the classes set up with open enrollment, so they can >finish at any time? With a good Web system and several take home labs, it doesn't matter when someone registers and it matters little how fast they go. (You do have to go fast enough that the remembering rate is faster than the forgetting rate.) Tom O'Haver >But simulations don't have to *replace* real experiments. The I apologize for any sense that they could or should. I learned from Paul Schatz more than a decade ago what a simulation can mean for effective instruction. (Schatz has developed excellent equipment simulations for nmr, IR, etc.) Also, I've told the story about the pilot who gets on the intercom to tell about the 1500 hours of simulation and is glad to share their first real flight with these passengers at least 20 times too often. >As a result, I seldom do computer things in class, but >rather make my high-tech assignments as homework. Sometimes >I reserve one of the instructional labs in another location, >but that too takes advance planning and creates the additional >problem of site licenses and installing software on somebody >else's computers. Uggh! Problems nearly all of us face. In fact, the topic of today's faculty development session that I mentioned above. Thanks for the many interesting and stimulating comments so far. Disequilibrium killed the cat, but satisfaction brought him back? No, it will never fly. Dave B David W. Brooks dbrooks@unlinfo.unl.edu 118 Henzlik-UNL (402)472-2018 Lincoln, NE 68588-0355 FAX (402)472-8317 http://www.cci.unl.edu [ Part 13: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:42:26 -0600 From: sc18 Subject: Re: Paper 3, TOH, Re: Answers to Short Questions 1 to2 wrote: > One might think that the use of a simulation after a real lab > experiment would be redundant or at least anti-climactical. > But many of the students have said, in evaluation questionaires, > that doing the simulations showed them that they didn't REALLY > understand everything they should have and that this forced them > to think harder about what was going on. This example is very clear to me. It is an example of the value of mobilizing prevenient knowledge, and causing students to solve the re-representation problem. The experiment with it's blunders, was used to stimulate quite diffusive knowledge about what issues were involved in the lab. The electronic simulation brought about re-representation of the problem and then it "fit" into what the students had already known. Sincerely, Ken Fountain [ Part 14: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:36:37 -0700 From: gary mort Subject: Re: Paper 3, TOH, Re: Answers to Short Questions 1 The most interesting use of simulations I have seen was for an electronics class the instructor was using homegrown software. The left half of the screen let a student "build" a circuit and examine its output on an "oscillascope." The right half of the screen functioned as a real scope with a real circuit bread boarded together and attached. Great learning device. You get to see simulations break down. You learn something about when not to trust them (and when to). gm [ Part 15: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:27:14 -0500 From: "William R. Robinson" Subject: Re: Paper #3 The responses to paper number 3 remind me of the following quotes provided by Scott Slough The following exerpts were found in the NSTA Report of Oct./Nov. 1995. >From a Teachers Conference 1703 - Students today can't prepare bark to calculate their problem. They depend on their slates, which are more expensive. What will they do when the slate is dropped and it breaks? They will be unable to write. >From a Principal's Publication, 1815 - Students today depend on paper too much. They don't know how to write on slate without getting chalk dust all over themselves. They can't clean a slate properly. What will they do when they run out of paper? >From the Nations Association of Teachers Journal, 1907 - Students today spend too much upon ink. They don't know how to use a pen knife to sharpen a pencil. Pen and ink will never replace the pencil. >From Rural American Teacher, 1928 - Students today depend too much upon store bought ink. They don't know how to make their own. When they run out of ink they will be unable to write words or ciphers until their next trip to the settlement. This is a sad commentary on modern education. >From PTA Gazette, 1941 - Students today depend on these expensive fountain pens. They can no longer write with a straight pen and nib. We parents must not allow them to wallow in such luxury to the detriment of learning how to cope in the real business world, which is not so extravagant. >From Federal Teacher, 1950 - Ball-point pens will be the ruin of education in out country. Students use these devices and then throw them away. The American values of thrift and frugality are being discarded. Business and banks will never allow such expensive luxuries (NSTA Reports, 1995). Scott Slough Sam Houston State University Huntsville, TX 77341 _________________________________________________________________ William R. Robinson Professor of Chemistry and Science Education Department of Chemistry Purdue University email: wrrobin@purdue.edu 1393 Brown Building Phone: 765-494-5453 West Lafayette, IN 47907-1393 Fax: 765-494-0239 [ Part 16: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:27:29 -0500 From: "Richard O. Pendarvis" Subject: ROP Re: Paper 3-WV- Is time ripe for Keller? This is an interesting discussion. There was an article on the Keller system on CHEMICAL EDUCATOR a couple of years ago with some discussion on the forum. The consensus seemed to be that it was a good idea but that A) It would never fit in with our rigidly scheduled courses. B) People with normal teaching and/or research loads would not be able to keep up with all the work required. Technology may offer some a way of doing this. Many with experience at computerized testing have experienced serious practical problems. Although the difficulties do ultimately come down to logistics and resources, these problems are hard to deal with. This is particularly true at schools such as my own which do not have the resources or support and are not likely to have them in this lifetime. Fitting in to our rigid scheduling is a real concern but there are ways of doing this. Unfortunately, this also requires a combination of resources that we are not likely to get. As the saying goes "We have done so much with so little for so long that we should be anything with nothing." /* Richard */ #include - - ____ | | _ | | Organic Chemistry / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming / \ | | / \ || Pizza / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 17: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:41:05 -0500 From: Alfred Lata Subject: Re: Paper 3, TOH: High-tech classes in low-tech classrooms Oh my, I bet Dr. Chejlava is going to be real unhappy with the State of Virginia for purchasing (planning to purchase?) all those graphic calculators for each(?) high or middle school student. >Also, I have to get in my $0.02. I have found that most of my students >have more problems with the math dictated graphical calculators than >they are worth. If they heven't done a particular operation in the >last few weeks it is easy to forget which cryptic labels are the >correct ones to use. Michael Chejlava 3 Feb 98 Is their effort going to impart math and mathematical skills. I look forward to the report in several years, and I hope the science teachers too will use these calculators and they (and the students) reap some intellectual skills and rewards. (But will they be able to add and multiply?) It is nice to have the tools, better to know how to use the tools, still better to use them correctly, and best to know what you have created when you are done tooling around. Our tools are changing at a fantastic rate (both hardware and software), the applications are changing, and it frightens a lot of us. There's a lot out there on the web for all of us to use and peruse; some of it is great, some good, some --. Unfortunately, to the novice, much of it looks reliable; some of it is not. I don't know if Virginia will spring for lap-tops for each student !! What's your vision of what would happen if they did? What's the report of the colleges where each student has his/her own computer. (I look forward to a report from Australia.) Is Chemistry understanding better, deeper, clearer? Are more students going into Chemistry as a result? Anyone care to report? Alfred J. Lata, Dept of Chemistry, Univ of Kansas, Lawrence KS lata@caco3.chem.ukans.edu [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:29:41 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 3 -DR: Learning Without Teachers Re: Paper 3 - DR: Learning Without Teachers It seems to me that one of the important objectives of education is to bring students to the point where they CAN learn without teachers. To learn from reading For a scientist to learn from nature and experimentation I suppose in some sense you could consider a book and its author, and nature teachers. But this is not what is commonly meant by a teacher. Sure, teachers may help them reach this ultimate goal, but if learning is to be a life-long process and the individual is to be creative (s)he must develop a sense of independence. Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:40:06 -0500 From: Theresa Julia Zielinski Subject: Re: Paper 3 -tjz: Learning Without Teachers I guess we need to define 'teacher' I don't know what DW will say but my thoughts are now evolving from the position of independence to interdependence. In this light the teacher is more than the organizer and presenter of information, more than a coach, etc. My new way of thinking places the teacher in the role of a more experienced learner in a community of learners where interdependence is important. The teacher learner may be able to answer the question, "how did you know that?" for the novice learner. With the concept of interdependence we are free to move from straight lecture in our teaching techniques on to cooperative learning scenarios. It is natural and less authoritarian. It embeds the freedom of the learning metaphor. The more experienced learner still provides structure for the novice and validation for the novice's work. The success of the novice also, in my opinion, validates the role of the experienced teacher learner. In this metaphor we don't give the students stuff to know, we build a knowledge base with them. Even as beginners the contribute to the further construction of our knowledge base as we contribute to theirs. Interestingly I find that my creativity is nourished by the interaction with teacher/learners. Without the stimulation of intellectual interaction at all level I would be creatively barren. A strong learning community canalizes further creativity. Htm Theresa At 09:29 AM 2/4/98 EST, you wrote: >Re: Paper 3 - DR: Learning Without Teachers > >It seems to me that one of the important objectives of education is to >bring students to the point where they CAN learn without teachers. > >To learn from reading >For a scientist to learn from nature and experimentation > >I suppose in some sense you could consider a book and its author, >and nature teachers. But this is not what is commonly meant by a >teacher. > >Sure, teachers may help them reach this ultimate >goal, but if learning is to be a life-long process and the individual >is to be creative (s)he must develop a sense of independence. > >Donald Rosenthal >Department of Chemistry >Clarkson University >Potsdam NY 13699-5810 >ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU > Theresa Julia Zielinski Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Niagara University Niagara University, NY 14109 theresaz@localnet.com http://www.niagara.edu/~tjz/ 716-639-0762 (H - voice, voice mail and fax) 716-286-8257 (O - voice and voice mail) [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:39:18 -0500 From: "Richard O. Pendarvis" Subject: Re: Paper 3 -tjz: Learning Without Teachers On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Theresa Julia Zielinski wrote: > In this metaphor we don't give the students stuff to know, we build a > knowledge base with them. Even as beginners the contribute to the further > construction of our knowledge base as we contribute to theirs. > > Interestingly I find that my creativity is nourished by the interaction > with teacher/learners. Without the stimulation of intellectual interaction > at all level I would be creatively barren. A strong learning community > canalizes further creativity. I guess this is what worries many of us about the many forces interested in moving us away from the students. IMHO, much of the support for alternatives such as "distance learning" etc. etc. is soley for economic reasons. Contact with the students is one of the major motivating factors for teaching. To the extent that our contact with students is diminished, the entire process will become less effective. A lady who taught physiology here told me that essentially all the senses are involved in cognition. How much more is also involved? /* Richard */ #include - - ____ | | _ | | Organic Chemistry / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming / \ | | / \ || Pizza / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:06:02 EST From: Walt Volland Subject: Re: Paper 3 -DR: Learning Without Teachers I agree 100% with Don about the idea that our task is to "educate" our students so they can learn on their own. One of the worst things that has occurred in education has been the appearance of the codependency condition between educators and students created by the "life long learning" movement. I think everyone needs to learn continuously during their life time, but they also need to me able to cope with "learning" on their own. The system should not be perpetuating itself by creating a dependent population of people/students who believe that learning only occcurs properly in a classroom. Some of todays students actually lament that they learned ideas or material outside the classroom. Walt Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu luckybel@aol.com http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:11:02 -0500 From: Theresa Julia Zielinski Subject: Re: Paper 3 -tjz: Learning Without Teachers Dear Colleagues First I want to thank you all for your patience with my poor spelling even when using a spell check on this e-mail software. Canalizing was meant to be catalyzing. Interesting switch. I want to add that codependence really means to me mature interdependence. From where I sit I view the 'life long learning movement' as a breath of fresh air. The sooner we get students to understand that they must learn all the time and that they must develop the tools to do so as quickly as possible. This is a rapid change age we live in. Change will be even more rapid in just a few years after our students graduate. We cannot 'give' them what they need to know today let alone what they will need to know tomorrow. Cooperation, collaboration, and the ability to learn are requirements when the things needed to function in a career are so rapidly changing. Mature interdependence does not mean dependence. In order to succeed in mature interdependence one must bring the fruits of individual study to the table. These fruits include a plethora of skills that are honed through individual and group practice. To use the sport metaphor of my friend and colleague, David Hanson (SUNY Stony Brook), one practices a sport like tennis or wrestling with team mates in your group. This strengthens one to compete as an individual. In other situations you practice with a team and compete with the same team against other teams. Individual study time, time spent doing creative writing, computation, manuscript reading, literature searching, study of new material in the published literature, study of new mathematical concepts in the quiet of one's office etc. do not diminish the role of the teacher in the student teacher relationship. Sooner or later one must test these ideas with a master or novice colleague. Learning does not occur in a vacuum. There is the author/reader, student/teacher relationship threaded throughout this at all levels. We are codependent wether we like it or not. Even Newton built on the work of others when he created the Calculus and articulated the laws of mechanics. The learning 'lone shark' is a fiction. We swim in schools. Sincerely Theresa At 12:06 PM 2/4/98 EST, you wrote: >I agree 100% with Don about the idea that our task is to "educate" our >students so they can learn on their own. One of the worst things that has >occurred in education has been the appearance of the codependency condition >between educators and students created by the "life long learning" movement. >I think everyone needs to learn continuously during their life time, but they >also need to me able to cope with "learning" on their own. The system should >not be perpetuating itself by creating a dependent population of >people/students who believe that learning only occcurs properly in a >classroom. > >Some of todays students actually lament that they learned ideas or material >outside the classroom. > >Walt > >Walt Volland >Department of Chemistry >Bellevue Community College >Bellevue, Washington 98007 >425-641-2467 >wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu >luckybel@aol.com >http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html > Theresa Julia Zielinski Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Niagara University Niagara University, NY 14109 theresaz@localnet.com http://www.niagara.edu/~tjz/ 716-639-0762 (H - voice, voice mail and fax) 716-286-8257 (O - voice and voice mail) [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:27:43 -0500 From: pankuch Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 2 Feb 1998 to 3 Feb 1998 HOW LONG does it take for the average student to learn how to use your suite of programs? How long to become comfortable with all operations you feel they should know. How effective is this type of learning versus traditional? Have you done any controlled comparisons of one versus the other? How long term is the effectiveness or is it partially the Hawthorne effect where any reasonable change gives increased learning for awhile.I'd appreciate any hard experimental data you can supply. Thanks, Brian Pankuch [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:40:43 -0600 From: "David W. Brooks" Subject: Responses Donald Rosenthal >It seems to me that one of the important objectives of > education is to bring students to the point where they >CAN learn without teachers. > >To learn from reading >For a scientist to learn from nature and experimentation > I totally agree. In fact, the entire hands-on movement seems to me to be an overinterpretation of Piagetian outcomes. BUT, what are your doing today, Don? Am I not teaching you? Are you not teaching me? Was Bill Robinson teaching us with his contribution? Was that really Bill's contribution, or was he actually re-teaching from the teachings he had received from a teacher name Slough? The last time I submitted a paper to this conference, it dealt with something like sabbatical leaves. It was one of the most cited conference papers. When asked to submit for this conference, I had two things in mind. When I selected this topic, was I not teaching by making that choice? When Al joined with me, was he not teaching? How about my junior colleagues, Amjad and Rebecca. They did all kinds of research work but, without their efforts, Al and I could not have written this paper. Were Amjad and Rebecca teachers or researchers? You will indeed learn via the mecahnism of reading if you read this message and it somehow changes you. But, in preparing this response, a synthesis (Bloom level 5) on my part, was I not teaching? {That piece of interjected "code" comes from the Bloom Taxonomy of Educational Objectives. In this scheme, learning objectives are set into a hierarchy which, though not required to be so, a presumed level of intellectual comlexity. Rote memorization, possibly unaccompanied by any understanding, is at the first level. Evaluation is at the sith and highest level. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0582280109/0223-5625388-728683 } Soon I expect to unveil a turnkey system for BOTH teaching and doing stoichiometry. In principle, EVERYTHING one needs to learn the subject and to perform professional calculations IS a part of that system. In principle, anyone will be able to put it on the WWW and use it to offer college credit. You stick it on a Web site behind a firewall, issue a password for access, click a few boxes to determine the course level and the amount of hand grading, and your done. If you want lots of hand grading, your e-mail will fill with questions, student responses, and model answers. I do expect there to be flaws, but I also expect that it will be generally regarded as a very good, perhaps excellent system. I DON'T EXPECT MOST STUDENTS TO LEARN FROM IT WITHOUT TEACHERS. In principle, once the teacher clicks a couple of switches, it will run itself -- reporting to the teacher when various criteria have been met. Theresa Julia Zielinski >In this metaphor we don't give the students stuff to >know, we build a knowledge base with them. Even as beginners > the contribute to the further construction of our knowledge >base as we contribute to theirs. > >Interestingly I find that my creativity is nourished by the >interaction with teacher/learners. Without the stimulation >of intellectual interaction at all level I would be >creatively barren. A strong learning community catalizes >further creativity. Careful, TZ, too much talk like this and you'll end up in a College of Ed. Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. >I guess this is what worries many of us about the many >forces interested in moving us away from the students. >IMHO, much of the support for alternatives such as "distance >learning" etc. etc. is soley for economic reasons. Contact >with the students is one of the major motivating factors >for teaching. To the extent that our contact with students >is diminished, the entire process will become less effective. > This is a most disconcerting thing in my own life. As you can infer from my response to Don, I'm way down the road on the distance learning path. One could say several things here. How about, "Get real, Buddy, you're participating in an electronic conference at this moment. Why? How about -- for ECONOMIC reasons." I just took an hour out between responding to Don's post and writing here to speak with a student. This person wants to be a TEACHER. She's in our program, and can't stand several of the things we ask her to do. [My summary of her complaints is that we're asking too much bs of her.] My conversation with her began by reminding her of all of the places where she could teach. Few students at a place like mine appreciate that about half of the intoductory chemistry credit in the US is earned in 2-year colleges. They forget that medical schools have teachers. They forget that companies hire folks whose entire role is to teach. Ours was a very wide ranging, give-and-take, extremely cordial conversation that ended with an agreement to meet again, and soon. That conversation had to be face-to-face. Down the road, maybe a phone call will do. During this intervening hour, not only was I a teacher, but I was doing what I think I do best. A logical extension of the Brooks-Lata-Abuloum-Rohm paper, one I've not discussed with my co-authors, is that the world will need MORE TEACHERS, not fewer teachers. As we move from job to job and task to task, more, not less conceptual understanding will be needed. In the short term, while we see new technologies used to prepare students to "fight the old wars," we can expect to see economic efficiencies prevail. As these two rates meld, my guess is that we see a decrease before we see an increase, at least in postsecondary education. I find this frightening -- not comforting. If the older among us die off, and the younger are killed off, will anyone remember how to do it. Really, I DO BELIEVE it's a lot tougher than handing down a recipe for india ink. Walt Volland >I agree 100% with Don about the idea that our task is to >"educate" our students so they can learn on their own. >One of the worst things that has occurred in education has >been the appearance of the codependency condition between >educators and students created by the "life long learning" >movement. I think everyone needs to learn continuously >during their life time, but they also need to me able to >cope with "learning" on their own. The system should >not be perpetuating itself by creating a dependent population >of people/students who believe that learning only occcurs >properly in a classroom. Life long learning is a reality and stands at the heart of our paper. This was not brought on any system of education; it was brought on by what seems to be a steady evolution of human thought. It is entirely outside my realm of personal and professional experience to conceive of an instructional system that I could put into place today that would prepare me or anyone else for a lifetime as a thinking, literate person. That will evolve. I've had to learn LOTS since I left school. Did Columbia give me "thinking skills?" You betcha. But, they taught me how to think and succeed is a world that is very different today than it was 35 years ago. I tend to subscribe to the notions set forth by Theresa above, and I choose not to view this as co-dependency but as collaboration. (In fact, I wrote this statement before another TZ response popped up. That response begins with: >Dear Colleagues >First I want to thank you all for your patience I concur with this response, and admire its clarity.) Dave B David W. Brooks dbrooks@unlinfo.unl.edu 118 Henzlik-UNL (402)472-2018 Lincoln, NE 68588-0355 FAX (402)472-8317 http://www.cci.unl.edu [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:47:08 -0800 From: "K.R.Fountain" Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 2 Feb 1998 to 3 Feb 1998 pankuch wrote: > HOW LONG does it take for the average student to learn how to use your suite of > programs? How long to become comfortable with all operations you feel they > should > know. How effective is this type of learning versus traditional? > > Have you done any controlled comparisons of one versus the other? How long term > is > the effectiveness or is it partially the Hawthorne effect where any reasonable > change gives increased learning for awhile.I'd appreciate any hard experimental > data > you can supply. > > Thanks, > Brian Pankuch Hi, I'm not sure if this belongs to me. Please send again with a reference to what it is that you are asking. KR Fountain [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:50:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 3 -tjz: Learning Without Teachers >I guess this is what worries many of us about the many forces interested in >moving us away from the students. IMHO, much of the support for >alternatives such as "distance learning" etc. etc. is soley for economic >reasons. I read somewhere that the economic advantages of distance learning may be an illusion, by the time you include all the costs and personnel involved in developing and maintaining software and networks. Some say this it is the students themselves who will be the major force - students who can't or won't attend conventional classroom-based courses on a regular basis, due to location, job or child care commitments. Will lifelong learning be available only to the people who can afford to meet in classrooms? Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry University of Maryland Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry College Park, MD 20742 Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation (301) 405-1831 to2@umail.umd.edu FAX: (301) 314-9121 http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:52:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 2 Feb 1998 to 3 Feb 1998 To whom is this question directed? Any particular person or any CHEMCONF participant? Tom >HOW LONG does it take for the average student to learn how to use your suite of >programs? How long to become comfortable with all operations you feel they > should >know. How effective is this type of learning versus traditional? > >Have you done any controlled comparisons of one versus the other? How long term > is >the effectiveness or is it partially the Hawthorne effect where any reasonable >change gives increased learning for awhile.I'd appreciate any hard experimental > data >you can supply. > >Thanks, >Brian Pankuch [ Part 12: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:57:46 -0400 From: "Timothy L. Pickering" Subject: Re: Paper 3 -tjz: Learning Without Teachers Theresa Z. wrote: >I want to add that codependence really means to me mature interdependence. snip > >Mature interdependence does not mean dependence. In order to succeed in >mature interdependence one must bring the fruits of individual study to the >table. These fruits include a plethora of skills that are honed through >individual and group practice. To use the sport metaphor of my friend and >colleague, David Hanson (SUNY Stony Brook), one practices a sport like >tennis or wrestling with team mates in your group. This strengthens one to >compete as an individual. In other situations you practice with a team and >compete with the same team against other teams. snip I always enjoy reading what Theresa has to say, and I agree with her thoughts here. However, I would suggest the use of the description "mature interdependence", as explained by Theresa, in place of the the term "codependence". The latter has a rather well established negative connotation in the realm of interpersonal relationships ( I don't know what else to call it. Counseling?). It describes an interaction between individuals that is unhealthy and undesirable. The mature interdependence that Theresa describes is at opposite poles from this. Tim Pickering Virginia Tech [ Part 13: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:49:40 -0500 From: Theresa Julia Zielinski Subject: Re: Paper 3 -tjz: Learning Without Teachers Dear Tim and Others I struggle so with the choice of words and trying to keep up. I can only grow through the mature interdependence I have found in collegial groups such as in Chemconf and with my other on-line activities and physical chemistry learning community colleagues. Technology has made a big difference in our ability to learn and contribute. Cheers Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Niagara University Niagara University, NY 14109 theresaz@localnet.com http://www.niagara.edu/~tjz/ 716-639-0762 (H - voice, voice mail and fax) 716-286-8257 (O - voice and voice mail) [ Part 14: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:12:39 -0500 From: Alfred Lata Subject: Re: Paper 3 -tjz & rop Thank you Theresa: I appreciate your comment: >My new way of thinking places the teacher in the role of a more >experienced learner in a community of learners where interdependence is >important. Yes, indeed, the teacher is a learner, but many students don't realize that. They think that that the teacher has all the answers, whereas in reality the teacher just has more question; and is willing to admit it and try to find the better answers so that we will have better questions. As we learn in the teaching business, we become (hopefully) better teachers, with more and better methods, designs and tricks. In the sciences we can design experiments to answer our questions. Do the students realize that the laboratory and the work therein is designed to answer questions? When things don't work (?), the question becomes why and how do I find out what was the cause and how do I solve it. Do students look at experiments in that sense? (Unfortunately, it is our problems we give to students to solve in the laboratory, rather than theirs.) In reply to Dr. Pendaris: >IMHO, much of the support for alternatives such as "distance learning" >etc. etc. is soley for economic reasons. Contact with the students is >one of the major motivating factors for teaching. Yes, many admistrators are looking to distance education as a money saver. A recent video downlink re DE, an experienced instructor said that the max class size for DE should be about 15 (!), that interaction via e-mail, etc re questions, papers, evaluation of submitted work and discussion among students about submitted materials gives this limitation. Are administrators ready to accept this class size limitation. The other administration aspect that is viewed for the future is that once a class is up and running for DE, the instructor in not required, or possibly not hired - the class will run by itself. No way!! With DE there is still provision for interaction with the student, just not face to face. An instructor can have individual interaction via email, or CUSeeMe! But the student can use the facilities available via the Web to examine materials. It's an exciting time. But we need to drive what is available, not be pulled by it. Alfred J. Lata, Dept of Chem, Univ of Kansas, Lawrence KS lata@caco3.chem.ukans.edu [ Part 15: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:16:39 CST From: "James A. Carroll" Subject: JAC: to2 on Lifelong Learning The Western Governors' University seems to recognize the expense of distance learning, and means to spread it across a large student base. It seems to be under no illusion of an economic advantage to the university. There is an economic advantage to the population (and the states' Departments of Revenue) in developing skills - lifelong learning. And individual students may see significant advantages in cost and convenience to distance learning compared to on-site course offerings. I suggest William Gates is driven by a desire to foster a customer demand for this sort of product. Imagine yourself as a small competitor to Microsoft. Fine restaurants didn't all close with the rise of McDonalds, BurgerKing, Wendys, etc. Lifelong learning in classrooms will continue to be available, and will continue to be worth it to some people, but there are plenty who stand to benefit by making it available in some form to others. The demand for this will be commercially stimulated. > I read somewhere that the economic advantages of distance > learning may be an illusion, by the time you include all > the costs and personnel involved in developing and > maintaining software and networks. Some say this it > is the students themselves who will be the major > force - students who can't or won't attend conventional > classroom-based courses on a regular basis, due to > location, job or child care commitments. > > Will lifelong learning be available only to the people > who can afford to meet in classrooms? Jim Carroll Phone (402) 554-3639 University of Nebraska at Omaha Dept (402) 554-2651 Department of Chemistry FAX (402) 554-3888 6001 Dodge St. Omaha, NE 68182-0109 jcarroll@unomaha.edu [ Part 16: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:20:51 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: Paper 3 -WV: Eternal learning The key point is that our goal should still be to have people able to make independent decisions. The assumption that all interdependent learning matches the ideal is just as off the mark as the assumption that our students should learn everything on their own. Mature cooperative learning will happen in some classes and codependence in others. Just because cooperative learning is supposed to be happening doesn't mean that it has. Another set of issues to consider revolve around the variations in learning styles. There are many people who learn well and prefer other ways of learning. I believe a blend of a variety of methods is preferable to only one. The options should not be cooperative learning yes or no; traditional lectures yes or no; lab simulations yes or no; etc. My concern is that the "life long learning" idea is often construed to mean eternal enrollment in a class. [ Part 17: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:46:39 -0500 From: "L. Peter Gold" Subject: Re: Paper 3 -tjz: Learning Without Teachers At 01:50 PM 2/4/98 EST, to2 wrote: >I read somewhere that the economic advantages of distance >learning may be an illusion, by the time you include all >the costs and personnel involved in developing and >maintaining software and networks. Some say this it >is the students themselves who will be the major >force - students who can't or won't attend conventional >classroom-based courses on a regular basis, due to >location, job or child care commitments. > >Will lifelong learning be available only to the people >who can afford to meet in classrooms? > About two months ago there was a piece in "The New Yorker" magazine about the University of Phoenix, which has attracted a very large number of such students to classroom-based courses by holding the classes at locations and times convenient for them. (I'm sorry I don't have the exact reference at hand; it's at home. If anyone needs it to locate the article I'll be happy to provide it.) I recommend it to anyone not already familiar with this school and who is interested in learning about another part of the future of higher education. ------------------------------------------------------ L. Peter Gold phone (814) 865-7694 Professor of Chemistry fax (814) 865-3314 Penn State University 152 Davey Lab E-mail: LPG@PSU.EDU University Park PA 16802 ------------------------------------------------------ [ Part 18: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:47:03 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: to2 on Lifelong Learning > James A. Carroll > > Wednesday, February 4, 1998 1:16 PM > > > The Western Governors' University seems to recognize the expense of > distance learning, and means to spread it across a large student > base. It seems to be under no illusion of an economic advantage to > the university. There is an economic advantage to the population > (and the states' Departments of Revenue) in developing skills - > lifelong learning. And individual students may see significant > advantages in cost and convenience to distance learning snip The economic questions are should be concern for all of us. There always will be a finite funding base. The use of these moneys on costly programs to the detriment of other needed programs should be argued in the public forum. There isn't much debate about these questions. There were days when some people said that television was going to solve our education problems. Some people today, say that the short attention spans of many students are the result of the time blocks inherent in commercial tv programing. Cooperative education, distance learning have all existed in the education system for years. They each are a natural part of life. Any enthusiastic advocate can make a case for one approach, but the reality is that no one of these alone can answer the needs of a diverse scattered population. > Dr. Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue WA 98007 > 425-641-2467 > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html [ Part 19: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:12:14 -0600 From: sc18 Subject: Re: to2 on Lifelong Learning Walter Volland wrote: > The economic questions are should be concern for all of us. > There always will be a finite funding base. The use of these moneys on > costly programs to the detriment of other needed programs should be > argued in the public forum. There isn't much debate about these > questions. > > There were days when some people said that television was going > to solve our education problems. Some people today, say that the short > attention spans of many students are the result of the time blocks > inherent in commercial tv programing. > > Cooperative education, distance learning have all existed in the > education system for years. They each are a natural part of life. Any > enthusiastic advocate can make a case for one approach, but the reality > is that no one of these alone can answer the needs of a diverse > scattered population. Hi, I agree with this,but it does not get at the issue of a papably needed reform. Do we need a philosphy of knowing and being different from what we have now? Perhaps if we knew how experts deal with rcognition of problems, we could teach novices how we deal with problems by showing them how we recognize them, and how we select mental pathways to make progress in their solution, illuminating them how we evaluate the mental pathways as we go. (I've just described expert behavior according to Rief) Sincerely, Ken Fountain [ Part 20: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:49:41 -0700 From: Scott Donnelly Subject: Paper 3 sjd And as the audience debated whether the solo performance was done using a cello or violin the orchestra played on. Scott Donnelly Email: aw_donnelly@awc.cc.az.us Department of Chemistry Phone: 520 344 7590 Arizona Western College Webpage: http://www.awc.cc.az.us/chem/ Yuma, AZ 85366-0929 "In education it is not enough to be aware that other people may try to fool you;it is more important to be aware of your own tendency to fool yourself." -Paul G. Hewitt [ Part 21: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:47:18 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 3 - DR: Food for Thought - Some Quotes Re: Paper 3 - DR: Food for Thought - Some Quotes from the Literature "We can no longer teach in 4 years, or even 10 years, everything a chemist needs to know. There is just too much. New strategies are needed for learning and for the creation of learning environments. These strategies need to be implemented through the wise use of technology so as to streamline the curriculum and reform the pedagogical approach. . . . The new educational paradigm that we support is designed to prepare students to be autonomous learners and constructors of concepts. Computers, a technology with extraordinary potential, can be tools that support teachers in achieving this objective. Students in this new system must be prepared to use technology effectively to amplify requisite skills and abilities." in "Using Computers in Chemistry and Chemical Education", T. J. Zielinski and M. L. Swift (editors), American Chemical Society, Washington DC, 1997 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "The traditional face-to-face classroom learning situation is generall assumed to be the best to support learning, with other learning modes perhaps perceived as less effective. There is no evidence to support this assumption. In fact, quite the opposite is true: Online environments facilitate learning outcomes that are equal or superior to those generated in the face-to-face situation." in "Learning Networks: A Field Guide to Teaching and Learning OnLine" by L. Harasim, S. R. Hiltz, L. Teles and M. Turoff, The MIT Press, Cambridge MA, 1995. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "In a complex world of constant change, where knowledge becomes obsolete every few years, education can no longer be something that one acquires during youth to serve for an entire lifetime. Rather education must focus on instilling the ability to continue learning throughout life. Fortunately, the information-technology revolution is creating a new form of electronic, interactive education that should blossom into a lifelong learning system that allows almost anyone to learn almost anything from anywhere at anytime. "Telelearning: The Multimedia Revolution in Education" by William E. Halal and Jay Liebowitz in The Futurist, November-December 1994, p. 21. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "No question about it - the information revolution is here at last. . . . there is no one unaffected by the explosion of computer technology. . . . . Everything . . . . has been radically transformed by a tool invented barely 50 years ago. . . . . The revolution has only just begun, but already it's starting to overwhelm us. It's outstripping our capacity to cope. . . . . A computer gives the average person, a high school freshman, the power to do things in a week that all the mathematicians who ever lived until 30 years ago couldn't do." "TechnoMania" by Steven Levy in Newsweek, February 27, 1995, p. 25. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ". . . . the Internet has real problems. It's the world's only functioning anarchy, and it's not clear to anybody how long a 30-million member anarchy really can last. But we're all going to find out." "Editorial Commentary" by Thomas G. Donlan in Barron's, March 6, 1995, p. 54. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "In 1979, a U.S. Department of Education Report found that computer literacy was becoming a fourth basic skill and that it was almost as important as reading, writing and arithmetic. It was recommended that schools begin to develop and support long range technology programs to prepare students for the workforce." A book review by Philip V. Bender in Contemporary Education, Vol. 65 (#1),1993, p. 51. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Computer-mediated communication is an increasingly familiar part of the education experiences of students from elementary through graduate school. This is not surprising, because electronic mail, bulletin boards, gopher servers, and other forms of telecommunications offer conveniences and exciting new possibilities for learning. . . . . The rapid expansion of the Internet, the availability of low-cost modems and high-speed data lines, and a growing awareness of the educational possibilities are leading to major changes in classrooms. In contrast to ordinary face-to-face communication within the classroom, computer-mediated communication offers three principal advantages: The first of these is . . . . telecommunicating. Students may communicate with each other and the teacher without being present in the same physical space. . . . . A second advantage is asynchronous communicating. Communication can take place with participants writing at different times. . . . . A third advantage is support for reflective communicating. Both teachers and students have the time for more considered and elaborate responses. . . . . . . . another form of computer-moderated communication, one which supports communicating within a classroom . . . . is synchronous . . . . This is called local-area synchronous (or real-time) communication; the classrooms that use it are called network-based classrooms. A networked-based classroom looks like a computer lab, with each student sitting in front of a computer. The computers are connected through a local-area network to the server on the teacher's desk. . . . . In the classroom, students and the teacher simultaneously compose messages in a real-time written conversation. . . . . Networked-based classrooms are now in use at well over 100 college campuses and in many K-12 settings." "Networked-Based Classrooms" by Bertram C. Bruce in Contemporary Education, Vol. 65 (#4), 1994, p. 226. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "The development and deployment of various, cost effective information technologies now make it possible for librarians, educators and civic planners to think about a not-too-distant future in which virtual libraries furnish the basis for the provision of high-quality services into every sector of the community, whether the community is urban, suburban or rural" "Virtual Libraries, Virtual Communities, and the Future of the Public Library" by Christinger Tomer in Journal of Computing in Higher Education, Vol. 6 (#2), 1995, p. 3. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Visionaries see a future of telecommuting workers, interactive libraries and multimedia classrooms. . . . . Baloney. Do our computer pundits lack all common sense? The truth is no online database will replace your daily newspaper, no CD-ROM can take the place of a competent teacher . . . . . . . the Internet is an ocean of unedited data, without any pretense of completeness. Lacking editors, reviewers or critics, the Internet has become a wasteland of unfiltered data. You don't know what to ignore and what's worth reading. . . . . . . . there are those pushing computers into schools. We're told that multimedia will make schoolwork easy and fun. Students will happily learn from animated characters while taught by expertly tailored software. Who needs teachers when you've got computer-aided education? Bah. These expensive toys are difficult to use in classrooms and require extensive teacher training. . . . . think of your own experience: can you recall even one educational filmstrip of decades past? I'll bet you remember two or three great teachers who made a difference in your life. . . . . What's missing from this electronic wonderland? Human contact. . . . . A poor substitute it is, this virtual reality where frustration is legion and where - in the holy names of Education and Progress - important aspects of human interactions are relentlessly devalued." "The Internet? Bah!" by Clifford Stoll in Newsweek, February 27, 1995, p. 41. --------------------------------------- Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 22: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:09:46 -0600 From: "David W. Brooks" Subject: Distance Learning Tom O'Haver >I read somewhere that the economic advantages of distance >learning may be an illusion, by the time you include all >the costs and personnel involved in developing and >maintaining software and networks. Some say this it >is the students themselves who will be the major >force - students who can't or won't attend conventional >classroom-based courses on a regular basis, due to >location, job or child care commitments. Some distance systems allow you to integrate tuition income over both space and time. When this is done, fairly substantial costs can be recovered. I have a proposal for a masters program for chemistry teachers. If there are 100 takers, it covers start-up costs (essentially $600K). I don't think it is far fetched to see those costs being recovered, and over a relatively short time. The costs don't change much if those teachers show up over one year or five years -- maybe 15% more over the long haul (not counting the cost of renting the money). The ACS put out some computer courses but stopped the practice because of costs. As time went on, year after year, there were sales. Ken Chapman would copy floppies and fulfill the orders. Overall, I think they made money on this. That is, they ran in the black rather than the red -- red being the predominant early color. I think they made money even when the interest cost was factored in. > >Will lifelong learning be available only to the people >who can afford to meet in classrooms? A more likely question is whether lifelong learning will be available only to those who can afford cable TV, can hook a $1K box onto that TV, and who can pay tuition. Tuition's the same. The cable TV is probably the same. Before too long, gas and parking can add up to $1K. Of course, you can take many bus and subway rides for $1K. Even though I'm at a land grant school, tuition can cut out some students. The NE statewide unemployment rate is well under 2%. When this happens, some students historically have preferred to work. When they have tuition money, time and place become the issue. When they have no jobs, time and place issues go away, but they can't afford tuition. Sometimes you can't win. David W. Brooks dbrooks@unlinfo.unl.edu 118 Henzlik-UNL (402)472-2018 Lincoln, NE 68588-0355 FAX (402)472-8317 http://www.cci.unl.edu [ Part 23: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:59:05 -0500 From: Alfred Lata Subject: re DR > 4 Feb 98 approx 16:47 CDT I found Don Rosenthal's quote; >A second advantage is asynchronous communicating. Communication can >take place with participants writing at different times. . . . . from "Networked-Based Classrooms" by Bertram C. Bruce in Contemporary Education, Vol. 65 (#4), 1994, p. 226. particularly interesting. The threaded discussion with archival capability will save instructor and student lots of time.(Threaded discussion = question (comment) topics being subject-lined with author&time notation, and subsequent responses being added in outline form so that subsequent readers can select what they wish to read.) It will also show the instructor what questions the students have (and other students will see also and not have to ask the same question, but can comment), and allow the apparent confusion to be solved for the next iteration of the subject. The asynchronous character of the polylogue, as well as the archival aspects, allow instructor and students to interact at any time without missing anything, yet permitting examination of only those topics of interest. Anyone using threaded discussions care to comment? Alfred Lata, Dept of Chemistry, Univ of Kansas, Lawrence KS lata@caco3,chem,ukans.edu [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:54:18 -0500 From: Joyce Overly Subject: Paper 3 - DR: Food for Thought - Some Quotes -Reply "The traditional face-to-face classroom learning situation is generall assumed to be the best to support learning, with other learning modes perhaps perceived as less effective. There is no evidence to support this assumption. In fact, quite the opposite is true: Online environments facilitate learning outcomes that are equal or superior to those generated in the face-to-face situation." in "Learning Networks: A Field Guide to Teaching and Learning OnLine" by L. Harasim, S. R. Hiltz, L. Teles and M. Turoff, The MIT Press, Cambridge MA, 1995. =========================================================== Six months ago I would never have agreed with this quote. However, personal experience with online instruction has changed my mind. For the last several months I have been volunteering 4 hours/week as an online tutor on America Online. It's amazing how much I am able to accomplish with students in this online enviroment. First of all, the lack of face-to-face interaction makes students much less inhibited about asking questions or trying to answer a question they're not sure about. Second, without the face-to-face interaction I'm forced to analyze their questions more carefully and I feel freer to pause to collect my thoughts and so can usually give a more carefully stated response. I find that I do a better job of prompting them to arrive at the appropriate conclusion themselves in my online interactions than I do in my daily face-to-face work with students. Whether we are ready for it or not, online instruction will be a part of education in the future. Since I can't stop it, I have chosen to embrace and shape it now rather than letting someone else do it for me. Thoughts, anyone? Joyce Overly Gaston College Dallas, NC (The Litle 'D') overly@gaston.cc.nc.us [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:15:02 -0500 From: Robley Light Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing software In response to this question: >>What areas do you mean? You describe using software >>for stoichiometry calculations, but what else did you >>have in mind? David Brooks responds > >I would consider the naming through to structure programs >examples of changes in organic chemistry, for example. >Try that ChemInnovation software. It's remarkable! >For example, it's not unusual to see an organic question >where the student is given a structure and asked to name >the substance represented by that structure. > I feel that one of the big pluses the web has brought, especially with the development of the CHIME plug in, is the ability to show and manipulate structures in 3 dimensions. I am terrible at trying to draw structures on the blackboard or overheads. I recently invested in the ChemWindow DB and accompanying symapps software with the hope of developing my own structures for presentation. I was disappointed to find it doesn't let me produce rotamers or conformers (to show, for example, the changing phi, psi angles in a peptide bond). Now I do have kinemage that might let me do that (I haven't really had time to undertake the learning curve for either software). I recently got the ad for the ChemInnovation 4D software, which seems to add the capability of naming compounds and drawing compounds from names, and information from them indicates one can do rotations about single bonds. One of my colleagues has an older ChemDraw program for the MAC that allows drawing different rotations. My question, if appropriate to this group, is has anyone had experience with more than one of these products to suggest which they feel is easiest to use? Is it worth investing in another packet to get the conformer capability? Are there other products to consider? If you don't feel it is appropriate to evaluate specific products in a public forum like this, anyone with thoughts on the subject could reply to me directly at rlight@chem.fsu.edu Thanks. By the way, I enjoyed paper #3. Our university is rushing pell-mell into the distance learning frenzy and has entered into an agreement with the British Open University for the joint develoment of materials and the adoption of BOU materials to modern web technology. Interested parties can read about these new efforts at http://www.idl.fsu.edu/ and http://www.idl.fsu.edu/ou/default.html I'm still trying to figure out how chemistry can fit into these grander plans, and in the meantime am just trying to get up to speed on the technology for use in my "up close learning" classes. Robley Light ************************************************************* Robley J. Light Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Phone: (850) 644-3844 Florida State University Email: rlight@chem.fsu.edu Tallahassee, FL 32306-4390 Fax: (850) 644-8281 Home Page: http://www.sb.fsu.edu/~rlight [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:49:06 -0500 From: George Long Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing software At 11:15 AM 2/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >In response to this question: > >>>What areas do you mean? You describe using software >>>for stoichiometry calculations, but what else did you >>>have in mind? > > >David Brooks responds > >> >>I would consider the naming through to structure programs >>examples of changes in organic chemistry, for example. >>Try that ChemInnovation software. It's remarkable! >>For example, it's not unusual to see an organic question >>where the student is given a structure and asked to name >>the substance represented by that structure. >> > > >I feel that one of the big pluses the web has brought, especially with the >development of the CHIME plug in, is the ability to show and manipulate >structures in 3 dimensions. I am terrible at trying to draw structures on >the blackboard or overheads. > One caveat to this. Recently, I had a discussion with several organic grad student regarding structure drawing programs. Their feeling was that it is incredibly important to be able to draw, and work with organic structures by hand. While they used the software for presentations, when they were having group discussions, the ability to use the blackboard, draw compunds, etc was very important, ie. the ability facilitated their interaction, drawing programs were not an appropriate tool. On the other hand some biochemist friends typically sit around a terminal while having research group discussions, because the software facilitates their discussion - a matter of scope I guess. One other anecdote, that I'd love to hear the authors comment on, I recently went to a 1st grade parent teacher meeting. the class has 1 oldish mac in the back of class that the students may use during their free time. After showing me that, the teacher started talking about how much she liked having the students use "Slates" (an 18th century? educational technology) to do their math work, because she can see what they all are doing very easily, and help correct the ones who need help. go figure **************************************************************************** Dr. George R. Long grlong@grove.iup.edu http://www.iup.edu/~grlong/ Department of Chemistry Indiana University of PA Indiana PA, 15705 **************************************************************************** [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:11:22 -0500 From: lferrier Subject: Paper3-Keller Plan I am having difficulty trying to image how the Keller Plan would actually work in my classroom. For example, if some students are still being tested on Chapter 2 and the rest of the class has moved on to Chapter 3, how will the former students "catch up" with the new material? Also, I always feel the pressure of having to cover much material in the first semester of general chemistry in order that the second semester course can begin with a particular subject. On another subject: When I was in college in the 60's, slide rules were the tools of choice to do the arithmetic in chemistry problems; it was possible to solve the problem without really thinking what it all meant. I have observed over the years that many of my students have difficulty looking at an equation like x = a/b and trying to figure out what happens to x when the value of b increases or decreases. Linda Ferrier UCONN, Torrington, CT [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:21:52 -0500 From: Robley Light Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing software To my comment >> >>I feel that one of the big pluses the web has brought, especially with the >>development of the CHIME plug in, is the ability to show and manipulate >>structures in 3 dimensions. I am terrible at trying to draw structures on >>the blackboard or overheads. >> George Long comments > >One caveat to this. Recently, I had a discussion with several organic grad >student regarding structure drawing programs. Their feeling was that it is >incredibly important to be able to draw, and work with organic structures >by hand. While they used the software for presentations, when they were >having group discussions, the ability to use the blackboard, draw compunds, >etc was very important, ie. the ability facilitated their interaction, >drawing programs were not an appropriate tool. On the other hand some >biochemist friends typically sit around a terminal while having research >group discussions, because the software facilitates their discussion - a >matter of scope I guess. A very good point. I don't teach organic and hence don't have experience with comparing the usefulness of both methods of representation, but it seems to me for a student to learn to draw a structure well, he or she must be able to visualize what the 3D structure looks like, and many organic courses employ molecular models for that purpose. I would think the CHIME plug in would be almost as good as models for getting them oriented. For probing the subtleties of a DNA double helical structure, it sure beats lugging a big DNA model to class. Robley Light ************************************************************* Robley J. Light Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Phone: (850) 644-3844 Florida State University Email: rlight@chem.fsu.edu Tallahassee, FL 32306-4390 Fax: (850) 644-8281 Home Page: http://www.sb.fsu.edu/~rlight [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:26:50 -0500 From: Robley Light Subject: Re: RL Paper3-Keller Plan Linda Ferrie writes >On another subject: When I was in college in the 60's, slide rules were >the tools of choice to do the arithmetic in chemistry problems; In the late 50's, I remember lugging around a book of log tables for the calculations. Robley Light ************************************************************* Robley J. Light Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Phone: (850) 644-3844 Florida State University Email: rlight@chem.fsu.edu Tallahassee, FL 32306-4390 Fax: (850) 644-8281 Home Page: http://www.sb.fsu.edu/~rlight [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:31:41 +0000 From: pankuch Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 3 Feb 1998 to 4 Feb 1998 >Hi, I'm not sure if this belongs to me. Please send again with a >reference to what it is that you are asking. >KR Fountain >To whom is this question directed? Any particular person >or any CHEMCONF participant? >Tom I meant the questions for DAVID BROOKS. I know David has had software available for some time. I had this software in mind, or any other software for which he has controlled experimental data available. If anyone else has experimental data available and they are willing to share I'd welcome it . >>HOW LONG does it take for the average student to learn how to use your suite of >programs? How long to become comfortable with all operations you feel they > should >know. How effective is this type of learning versus traditional? > >Have you done any controlled comparisons of one versus the other? How long term > is >the effectiveness or is it partially the Hawthorne effect where any reasonable >change gives increased learning for awhile.I'd appreciate any hard experimental > data >you can supply. > >Thanks, >Brian Pankuch [ Part 12: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:01:58 +0000 From: pankuch Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 3 Feb 1998 to 4 Feb 1998 > I read somewhere that the economic advantages of distance > learning may be an illusion, by the time you include all > the costs and personnel involved in developing and > maintaining software and networks. I too have wondered at the cost effectiveness of distance learning when it is several expensive ($300,000 or so) rooms connected by expensive fiber optic. Add that students generally have to be present someplace at a given time and it isn't that much different from commuting to a local college. If distance learning is on the web and the student connects when , where, for how long they want, and they supply the computer and hook up, then the economics look very different. Life long learning for anyone close to a connection to the Internet. Thats a lot of potential students. Brian Pankuch [ Part 13: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:19:58 -0500 From: "L. Peter Gold" Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing The current thread on software for drawing organic structures leads me to a related question. I'll pose it in the context of a specific problem I face but it is more general: I teach physical chemistry to a class of over 200. The textbook we use has a unique combination of features that we like for our course but the solutions manual is a disaster. To paraphrase Pauli (or was it Heisenberg?), many of the solutions therein are so bad they aren't even wrong. To make up for this I put in the library a set of solutions which I prepared and wrote out. The students liked the idea of having my solutions available but didn't like having them in the library. It's too inconvenient, the library closes too early, pages get lost (by one mechanism or another) from the notebook, etc. etc. I then thought of printing copies -- the so-called "dead-tree" format -- but students and colleagues dismissed that as hopelessly old-fashioned. "Put them on the Web, dummy," they cried. But how do I do that? My solutions include not only text but equations (many) and graphs and other drawings. Entering even one problem through a keyboard using, say, an equation editor, would be a major project. A semester's worth of problems would take a prohibitively long time and the next time I give the course I might want to assign different problems. Scanning in written solutions is possible but would create large files that would, I am told, occupy acres of server space and take forever to print out, creating great unhappiness in our campus computer labs. The general problem here is that putting anything other than plain text onto the Web -- or even into a word processor -- is currently a very time-consuming task. If one does invest the time then one might feel considerable pressure to recoup that investment by using the same material for a long time, even when revisions seem desirable. ------------------------------------------------------ L. Peter Gold phone (814) 865-7694 Professor of Chemistry fax (814) 865-3314 Penn State University 152 Davey Lab E-mail: LPG@PSU.EDU University Park PA 16802 ------------------------------------------------------ [ Part 14: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:52:26 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Assuming your computer labs have systems with CD-ROMs, I would recommend scanning the text and using a CD-R system to generate perhaps 10 or 20 copies, making them available to the students, rather than monopolizing web server space and download time. Assuming you scan the images as line art rather than grayscale, your files (let's say you convert to JPG images at about 5 or 10% compression) won't be that large. For retrieval, you would group your scans into PDF files. And if there is a signficant amount of text in the files, the Adobe Exchange OCR can convert it to PDF text format and save file size. And the PDF format will make it easy to search for text keys as well as make manipulation of the files much easier. ME From: L. Peter Gold > I then thought of printing copies >the so-called "dead-tree" format -- but students and colleagues dismissed >that as hopelessly old-fashioned. "Put them on the Web, dummy," they cried. > >But how do I do that? My solutions include not only text but equations >(many) and graphs and other drawings. Entering even one problem through a >keyboard using, say, an equation editor, would be a major project. A >semester's worth of problems would take a prohibitively long time and the >next time I give the course I might want to assign different problems. >Scanning in written solutions is possible but would create large files that >would, I am told, occupy acres of server space and take forever to print >out, creating great unhappiness in our campus computer labs. > >The general problem here is that putting anything other than plain text onto >the Web -- or even into a word processor -- is currently a very >time-consuming task. If one does invest the time then one might feel >considerable pressure to recoup that investment by using the same material >for a long time, even when revisions seem desirable. ================================================== Mike Epstein Research Chemist, NIST, Gaithersburg, Maryland [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Mike_S_Epstein@msn.com Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html Check out our new Spectrochemical Methods Group Page at NIST: http://www.cstl.nist.gov/nist839/839.01/spectro.htm "Standardization is a euphemism for monopoly" ... Ralph Nader at the Appraising Microsoft Conference, Nov 13-14, 1997 [ Part 15: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:59:55 -0500 From: Oliver Seely Subject: Re: Paper 3 - DR: Food for Thought - Some Quotes -Reply Joyce Overly writes, in part: >It's amazing how much I am able to accomplish >with students in this online enviroment. and >Whether we are ready for it or not, online instruction will be a part of >education in the future. I would respond, of course, that I agree with both of the statements. But I would argue that Joyce's students are a self-selected sample and my guess is that her sample is deficient in that group which thrives on personal interaction as a part of their education. My feeling is that in all of my classes there is always a small group of students who think that I am redundant and could (and would) just as easily learn the material by searching out the necessary sources. Steve Jobs is eager to expound (rather unkindly I think) about his teachers never having taught him anything. There is another small group of my students which if faced with that kind of learning would go elsewhere to satisfy their need for personal interaction. Their activities might not be called education, but the educational establishment would be poorer for having lost them. The online environment will doubtless make profound changes to the educational establishment. Moreover, it won't persist as a one-dimensional "online" environment for long. I anticipate rather large online classes with multiple-route full motion video in the near future. If and when that happens people in the second group will at least have the advantage of virtual personal interaction. The uncertainty about events actually taking us in that direction gives me sufficient motivation to stick around a little longer to see what happens. Oliver [ Part 16: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:10:54 -0700 From: Doris Kimbrough Subject: Paper 3 - DRK: distance learning in chemistry I have been lurking so far, but I would like to share some insight in the area of distance learning, telecommuting, etc. which is where some of the discussion has headed I have been involved in a distance learning version of general chemistry for the past couple of years. We have been using a mixture of old (videotapes), newer (on-line chat rooms) and newest (web support) technology. The students like the videotapes the best, but that is for a different discussion. Overall the course works very well **for a certain type of student**. Students who are self-directed, motivated, and self-disciplined, and who have schedules that prevent them from taking more traditional lectures thrive in this environment. They love "coming to lecture" at midnight or when their baby is sleeping or when they are out of town on business. Students who are less mature and tend to procrastinate struggle. They need the face-to-face interaction to stay motivated and caught up. (Not a terribly surprising or insightful discovery, but there you go...) These students still come to campus over seven Saturdays to perform the laboratory experiments (one in the morning and one in the afternoon). I keep coming back to the lab as the limitation for this kind of an approach in chemistry. I am comfortable with "home labs" for a non-majors course, but not in general chemistry. I am interested in any thoughts or experience that others have with distance learning and chemistry labs. Doris Doris R. Kimbrough Chemistry Department Box 194 University of Colorado at Denver Denver, CO 80217-3364 dkimbrough@castle.cudenver.edu [ Part 17: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:15:43 -0500 From: Alfred Lata Subject: Re Paper #3: several responses and comments (long) (As we approach the twilight of paper 3 discussion): Several unrelated comments: I enjoyed Don Rosenthal's series of quotes. Let me add some for your consideration: 'Consversations on the Uses of Science and Technology" Norman Hackerman & Kenneth Ashworth (Univ of North Texas Press, 1996) pg 20 'We might say we can train people for the present, but we educate people for the future.' pg 21 'Education cannot be replicated in identical, repetitive, measurable forms because education, unlike much training, is a completely individualized process. And it can be a real puzzlement because its value is often not immediately or even ultimately observable. Its value is more inherent in the individual; it creates potentiality in the person. Individuals learn. They can be induced to learn, but not forced to understand.' pg 22 'It is the distinction between training and education that makes teachers so important in the education process. Yet, even while they are so highly valuable, they are not the most valuable component of education. What is most important is the individual student. Teachers can try to induce students to learn, they can nag student to learn, they can challenge students to learn, but in the end they cannot make a student learn one damned thing. And without learning, regardless of how good the teaching is, education does not take place.' Personal comment: you win a few, you lose a few : hopefully the former is larger than the latter Response to Joyce Overly, 5 Feb >It's amazing how much I am able to accomplish with students in this >online enviroment. The interaction does not have to be face to face, and shy students, or those reluctant to expose their lack of understanding (not ignorance) can still question and discuss with the instructor. This where Distance Education (DE) has one of its strengths. (Incidentally: have you defined in your mind the distance to qualify as DE?) The advantage of threaded discussion (op.cit.) with archival capability strengthens the interaction and potentially will save the instructor time and sanity. Response to Robley J. Light 5 Sept re molecular structures on line Personal feelings are that much of our General Chem courses are natural philosophy rather science. The availability of introducing (presenting?) molecular structures to the students (with appropriate explanation explaining away stick bonds, etc) should have the impact of making compounds real (clap your hands if you believe in atoms). The other place we need programming help in assisting students learn and communicate to us is in a simple drawing or graphic mode so that the materials they want to ask us, and the answers we reply, can be those sketches (titration curves etc.) we so often use, but cannot easily create for transmission. Imagine the communicative power that would give us (check out the diagrams in your text). Response to George Long 5 Sept >she liked having the students use "Slates" We all like to see what the students level of achivement is, and we like verification. It also gives the opportunity to see where the student is making an error, not only if. If there were a scoring system, record keeping, and diagnostics give on the Mac, the teacher could help those who need it to a greater degree, and not need to check everyone. (A lab TA recently told me that his students 'told' him they knew what they were doing; their results did not bear this out. If he had watched them, they would not have made the obvious error.) Re Dr. Long's caveat re modeling: please see above re sketching. To Linda Ferrier: Thanks for bringing up slide rules. When we bring up problems that students have with calculators, I wonder how many of us more senior types could use half of the scales (engineers excluded!)? Response to Brian Pankuch: >If distance learning is on the web and the student connects when , >where, for how long they want, and they supply the computer and hook >up, then the economics look very different. It appears most DE will be from home. What difference from opposite end of the log, or opposite ends of the wire. (Consider again: what qualifies as distance in DE?) Forgive the length. So much to say, so little time! Alfred J. Lata, Dept of Chemistry, Univ of Kansas, Lawrence KS 66045 lata@caco3.chem.ukans.edu [ Part 18: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:27:44 -0700 From: Doris Kimbrough Subject: Re: Paper3-Keller Plan >I am having difficulty trying to image how the Keller Plan would actually >work in my classroom. For example, if some students are still being tested >on Chapter 2 and the rest of the class has moved on to Chapter 3, how will >the former students "catch up" with the new material? Also, I always feel >the pressure of having to cover much material in the first semester of >general chemistry in order that the second semester course can begin with a >particular subject. > I have another problem w/ the Keller Plan: it doesn't allow for the advantage of multiple exposures to concepts. I think this is a very important part of learning in chemistry. We introduce a concept (say equilibrium) in general chemistry and then revisit it as it applies to organic, analytical, physical, biochem, etc. How do you define "mastery"? I feel like I still haven't fully "mastered" the concept of equilibrium, even though I have taught it for many years now. It seems like I develop new insights into the topic everytime I revisit it, but I don't expect this level of involvement from my general chemistry students. However, at some point we have to move on. Doris Doris R. Kimbrough Chemistry Department Box 194 University of Colorado at Denver Denver, CO 80217-3364 dkimbrough@castle.cudenver.edu [ Part 19: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:32:07 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: Re Paper #3: several responses and comments (long) [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Al Lata responds: > To Linda Ferrier: Thanks for bringing up slide rules. When we bring up > problems that students have with calculators, I wonder how many of us > more senior types could use half of the scales (engineers excluded!)? Well, I can't resist one last time: If you thought the introduction of slide rules and/or calculators was a problem, what will you do when the chemical calculator is available - by the end of '98 I believe. [Prototype should be out for the National Inventor's Exposition at Epcot Center in Orlando, March 13 -15, 1998. More info later.] Bert Ramsay[ c3@BizServe.com ] [ Part 20: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:38:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing From: L. Peter Gold > I then thought of printing copies >the so-called "dead-tree" format -- but students and colleagues dismissed >that as hopelessly old-fashioned. "Put them on the Web, dummy," they cried. Of course, if each student prints out their own copy, it's the same number of dead trees either way. ;-) But the advantage of the Web solution is that it the students are printing on their dime (or nickel), not yours. And they can replace lost copies on their own. As ME says, scanning works well. However, I'd recommend scanning in grayscale rather than line art mode and at screen resolution (75 dpi). The results will be much clearer on screen due to "anti-aliasing", reducing the need to make a print out in every case. I just happen to have an example at hand. Compare http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/UMD-Projects/MCTP/WWW/app1.gif to http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/UMD-Projects/MCTP/WWW/app1g.gif The first is scanned in line-art mode and the second in grayscale. (I'm sorry there's no math on those examples - use your imagination). The grayscale is clearer. It is also a much larger file (66 Kbytes vs 16 Kbytes for the line art). But you can still get a LOT of those 66K files on a CD-R and they download pretty fast at today's multiple CD-ROM drive speeds. To get the same clarity in line art mode, you'd need to scan at higher resolution (e.g. 150 dpi), resulting in a X4 larger file and making it harder to fit on one page when printing. Tom -------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry and Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation The University of Maryland at College Park to2@umail.umd.edu http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh [ Part 21: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:47:46 -0400 From: Kitty Porter Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing >I teach physical chemistry to a class of over 200. The textbook we use has >a unique combination of features that we like for our course but the >wrong. To make up for this I put in the library a set of solutions which I >prepared and wrote out. The students liked the idea of having my solutions >available but didn't like having them in the library. It's too >inconvenient, the library closes too early, pages get lost (by one mechanism >or another) from the notebook, etc. etc. Speaking as a librarian who long ago refused to keep solutions for these very reasons, I am always interested in other ways to make this information available. This year we started putting organic problem sets and test up on the web on the Chem Dept. server. The tests are scanned and loaded as PDF files. I haven't done it myself, but our computer people say it's easy to do, Adobe programs are cheap. The students like it except for the problem of finding an available (and working!) printer. It has greatly simplified the lives of all those who formerly had to be in charge of keeping and handing out the tests and problem sets. Kitty Porter ***************************************************************************** Kitty Porter email:kitty@chem.duke.edu Duke Chemistry Library fax: 919-681-8666 PO Box 90355 phone: 919-660-1578 Durham NC 27708-0355 [ Part 22: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:53:55 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: ME response to TO re: #3 RL Question on drawing As much as quake in fear before disagreeing with my PhD research advisor, I'm going to have to in this case. The reason for the scan in a "line art" mode (preferably at 300 dpi) is that the OCR in Adobe Exchange will not work properly for text scanned in at 75 dpi. Again, this for use computer display using PDF files. There are also some quirks when inputing grayscale versus line art into the OCR. Mike [ Part 23: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:44:31 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: Paper3-WV-Keller Plan On Thursday, February 5, 1998 11:11 AM > Linda Ferrier > UCONN, Torrington, CT wrote > > I am having difficulty trying to image how the Keller Plan would > actually > work in my classroom. For example, if some students are still being > tested > on Chapter 2 and the rest of the class has moved on to Chapter 3, how > will > the former students "catch up" with the new material? Also, I always > feel > the pressure of having to cover much material in the first semester > of > general chemistry in order that the second semester course can begin > with a > particular subject. snip Glad you asked that question. You have recognized the problem of trying to "teach" a class on a schedule instead of following the Keller plan where students literally are learning at their own pace. The compromise measure that many people impose is to put in deadlines for completion of units. This means the self paced feature is modified. ( actually it is terminated) Another way to kep everyone at the same point is to set mastery at a simple level. One way around the problem of differential progress is to spend time dealing with different small groups. Each group would consist of people who are working at similar rates. The regular lecture structure is discarded. The irony of the situation is that the differential progress problem is created in part by the instructor. Another problem that rears its ugly head is that the end of the term will come along and some folks may not have completed the required work. If your school wants grades assigned , like most do, you are faced with the question of incompletes. The students will be unable to start the next class. Wow! Now you see why the traditional institutional constraints work against the Keller Plan. I believe all of these logistical problems can be solved, but the instructor has to alter his/her way of communicating with students. It is not an easy adjustment. It is possible if a person has a strong commitment to make the change. Lecture notes could be posted for all lectures. Practice quizzes for every unit or topic could be created and distributed before students take actual quizzes. Self grade quizzes could be mde vailable to students. A schedule of recommended deadlines for completion of each unit can be established and distributed with the syllabus. There are many ways to cope with the problems. Regards, Walt > Dr. Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue WA 98007 > 425-641-2467 > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html [ Part 25: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:50:31 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: RL Paper3-Keller Plan Thank goodness the need for using log tables is gone. I remember those days too. The simplicity of doing math operations today is too easy in some ways. I have problem with students who never write down any of their operations done on the calculator. This makes back tracking to analyze errors very difficult. Walt [ Part 26: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:03:48 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: Paper3-WV-Keller Plan The Keller standard of mastery is an arbitrary one. It depends on what expectations an individual department or instructor has for his/her students. The mastery isn't literally complete thorough going grasp of ll nuances of the topic. Instead it is usually set t a threshold that will allow a student to function successfully in the next series of course topics. I hope that chemistry isn't so simple a topic that freshman students can literally master all of the topics included in a general chemistry class. If it is I'm afraid we have all failed miserably as educators over the past generation. Walt > Dr. Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue WA 98007 > 425-641-2467 > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html > > [ Part 27: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:04:39 -0500 From: Reed Howald Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing At 02:19 PM 2/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >The current thread on software for drawing organic structures leads me to a >related question. I'll pose it in the context of a specific problem I face >but it is more general: > >I teach physical chemistry to a class of over 200. The textbook we use has >a unique combination of features that we like for our course but the >solutions manual is a disaster. To paraphrase Pauli (or was it >Heisenberg?), many of the solutions therein are so bad they aren't even >wrong. To make up for this I put in the library a set of solutions which I >prepared and wrote out. The students liked the idea of having my solutions >available but didn't like having them in the library. It's too >inconvenient, the library closes too early, pages get lost (by one mechanism >or another) from the notebook, etc. etc. I then thought of printing copies >-- the so-called "dead-tree" format -- but students and colleagues dismissed >that as hopelessly old-fashioned. "Put them on the Web, dummy," they cried. > >But how do I do that? My solutions include not only text but equations >(many) and graphs and other drawings. Entering even one problem through a >keyboard using, say, an equation editor, would be a major project. A >semester's worth of problems would take a prohibitively long time Yes, It will take one instructor a long time to work all his assignments in a clear, easily followed format. Why not assign most of the job to your students one year. You can then pick from their answers only the best to post. I am most comfortable at present with straight ASCII with ^ aand ~ to indicate superscripts and subscripts. But one of the best ways to do and to show graphs is to have the data in a spreadsheet. Loading a spreadsheet and viewing the graph is quite fast and easy. I have arranged this for small classes on one PC available in the chemistry building to all students. But I am sure something equivalent can be arranged for all the computer rooms through the computer center. And with attachments to e-mail a large group of instructors can share the most important things. >and the >next time I give the course I might want to assign different problems. >Scanning in written solutions is possible but would create large files that >would, I am told, occupy acres of server space and take forever to print >out, creating great unhappiness in our campus computer labs. > Server space in not currently a problem. I am working on a paper for the Chemical Educator, and they are happy to increase the length of a paper by adding supporting material. It is amazing how much can go on a floopy disk or a CD rom. >The general problem here is that putting anything other than plain text onto >the Web -- or even into a word processor -- is currently a very >time-consuming task. If one does invest the time then one might feel >considerable pressure to recoup that investment by using the same material >for a long time, even when revisions seem desirable. If the solutions to individual problems are kept in different files with identifiable names like CH12P15.ASC for problem 15 of chapter 12 they are quite easy to revise or replace. >------------------------------------------------------ >L. Peter Gold phone (814) 865-7694 >Professor of Chemistry fax (814) 865-3314 >Penn State University >152 Davey Lab E-mail: LPG@PSU.EDU >University Park PA 16802 >------------------------------------------------------ > > Reed Howald Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry Montana State University Bozeman Bozeman, MT 59717 U.S.A. howald@montana.edu [ Part 28: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:21:56 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: ME clarification to response to TO on #3 RL Question on drawing [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Regarding the discussion of scanning, file sizes, and PDF files for display of information, I did I quick experiment and want to clarify my previous comments: Scanning as line art (1 bit/pixel) and saving as JPG does no good, because a file saved as a JPG will become a grayscale (8 bits/pixel) image and become much larger AND you'll lose resolution in the bargain. Therefore, line art scans should be saved as BMP. Following is an example of the size of a text file scanned as either line art or grayscale Scanning mode 75dpi 150dpi 300dpi Grayscale as BMP 512kb 2mb 8mb Grayscale as 5% comp. JPG 175kb 600kb 2.1mb Line art as BMP 64kb 258kb 1mb PDF file created from 8mb grayscale bmp by OCR with Adobe Exchange was 100kb PDF file created from 1mb line art bmp by OCR with Adobe Exchange was 10kb Adobe Exchange requires 200-400dpi for grayscale input and 200-600dpi for line art. Also, there will be more OCR errors the lower the scan resolution. Hope this clarifies a few things ... if anyone has specific questions about my experiences with PDF generation, feel free to send private email. I'm sure (in fact I know) there are a few experts on PDFs lurking out there ... also feel free to correct anything I say here if you think I'm mistaken. Mike E. ================================================== Mike Epstein Research Chemist, NIST, Gaithersburg, Maryland [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Mike_S_Epstein@msn.com Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html Check out our new Spectrochemical Methods Group Page at NIST: http://www.cstl.nist.gov/nist839/839.01/spectro.htm "Standardization is a euphemism for monopoly" ... Ralph Nader at the Appraising Microsoft Conference, Nov 13-14, 1997 [ Part 29: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:38:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Re: ME response to TO re: #3 RL Question on drawing > The reason for the scan in a "line art" >mode (preferably at 300 dpi) is that the OCR in Adobe Exchange will not work >properly for text scanned in at 75 dpi. Since the original request was for P-Chem problem solutions that are mostly hand-written math equations and graphs, I'm assuming that OCR won't be very useful as a compression method and will complicate the process of getting the material on the Web, even if it can read the handwritten text portions. (As I remember those P-Chem problem set from many years ago, there was all too little text and all too many equations for my taste at the time). ;-) Tom O'Haver [ Part 30: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:40:27 -0500 From: Alfred Lata Subject: re #3 Volland 5 Feb 13:44 Re Volland's comments: >Another problem that rears its ugly head is that the end of the term >will come along and some folks may not have completed the required >work. If your school wants grades assigned , like most do, you are >faced with the question of incompletes. The students will be unable to >start the next class. Wow! Now you see why the traditional >institutional constraints work against the Keller Plan. Gee, until I got to the last line, I thought I was reading about Distance Education. Present this scenario to your administration and see what the response is. Is there such a thing as an Incomplete in Distance Ed, or only 'uncompleted todate'? Obviously Distance Ed is for the motivated, disciplined student. We have some faculty folks doing it, and several projects require the students to work in small (electronic) groups; they rely on one another and will divorce a non-productive member. Alfred J. Lata, Dept of Chemistry, Univ of Kansas lata@caco3.chem.ukans.edu [ Part 31: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:46:12 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: RL Paper3-Keller Plan [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] ---------- > From: Walter Volland > The simplicity of doing math operations today is too easy in some ways. > I have problem with students who never write down any of their > operations done on the calculator. This makes back tracking to > analyze errors very difficult. == Not with a chemical calculator! WYSIWYC! (What you see is what you calculated!) Bert Ramsay [ Part 32: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:06:23 -0500 From: Rosamaria Fong Subject: Re: Paper3-WV-Keller Plan Walt Volland wrote: >Glad you asked that question. >One way around the problem of differential progress is to spend time >dealing with different small groups. Each group would consist of people >who are working at similar rates. The regular lecture structure is >discarded. The irony of the situation is that the differential progress >problem is created in part by the instructor. > >Another problem that rears its ugly head is that the end of the term >will come along and some folks may not have completed the required >work. If your school wants grades assigned , like most do, you are >faced with the question of incompletes. The students will be unable to >start the next class. Wow! Now you see why the traditional >institutional constraints work against the Keller Plan. > > >I believe all of these logistical problems can be solved, but the >instructor has to alter his/her way of communicating with students. It >is not an easy adjustment. It is possible if a person has a strong >commitment to make the change. > >Lecture notes could be posted for all lectures. Practice quizzes for >every unit or topic could be created and distributed before students >take actual quizzes. Self grade quizzes could be mde vailable to >students. A schedule of recommended deadlines for completion of each >unit can be established and distributed with the syllabus. There are >many ways to cope with the problems. > What is the likelihood of "success" with implementing teaching in the way that you have suggested? I'm not really sure what "success" is, but any comment will be helpful. I have a Web-based study guide with my pre-entry chemistry course. To make the change as per your suggestions such as self grade quizzes, a schedule of deadlines for completion ... would not be difficult to do. I can see that a Web-based study guide would lend itself to "self-pace" learning. With a class of a dozen students in my pre-entry chemistry course, monitoring student progress is not a problem. I can see the advantage in that if a student's background is stronger, he/she would not be held back by others who are struggling with calculations. Of course, scheduled lectures would be held in an entirely new format. This is interesting. Rosamaria Fong British Columbia Institute of Technology Burnaby, B.C. Canada (CHEM 0010 Web-based Study Guide - http://nobel.scas.bcit.bc.ca/chemconf98/0010) [ Part 33: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:14:42 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: Re: ME response to TO re: #3 RL Question on drawing [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] I see Tom's point here. However, even if the material is just images, you gain by using the PDF format because you can organize the material without having to generate HTML code. And when you generate HTML code you run into platform specific problems (Mac vs. PC; Netscape vs. IE). More important, if there is a small amount of text (key words, problem numbers, etc.) that can be OCR'd, you can use the search function of the AA reader to speed up access for the students. Finally, you can scan the images in at higher resolution to improve readibility, because the AA reader has a zoom in/out function Mike Epstein From: to2 > >Since the original request was for P-Chem problem solutions >that are mostly hand-written math equations and graphs, >I'm assuming that OCR won't be very useful as a compression >method and will complicated the process of getting the >material on the Web, even if it can read the handwritten >text portions. (As I remember those P-Chem problem >set from many years ago, there was all too little text and >all too many equations for my taste at the time). ;-) > >Tom O'Haver > [ Part 34: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:44:22 +0000 From: "Dr. Red Chasteen" Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing > .... "Put them on the Web, dummy," they cried. > > > >But how do I do that? My solutions include not only text but equations > >(many) and graphs and other drawings. Entering even one problem through a > >keyboard using, say, an equation editor, would be a major project. A > >semester's worth of problems would take a prohibitively long time One solution: scan each problem set answer page and post it as a JPEG image; they're viewable by browsers. Ten pages = ten images. Red Head -- Dr. Thomas G. Chasteen Department of Chemistry Sam Houston State University Huntsville, Texas 77341-2117 Streaming Audio versions of Analytical Chemistry Primers here: http://www.shsu.edu/~chm_tgc/sounds/sound.html [ Part 35: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 21:11:20 EST From: Karen Timberlake Subject: Re: Paper 3 - DR: Food for Thought - Some Quotes -Reply I agree. I have recently overhauled all my lectures to make a more student- centered learning environment. As a result students must take more responsibility and learn to ask questions. I explain that one of the most important things about learning chemistry is to identify what they don't understand and to formulate questions. Many students will not ask a question in class for several reasons including a negative response from the teacher or how they look in front of their classmates. If students are online, I expect that some barriers to asking questions are lowered and that more students will ask questions to have interaction. This could be a big advantage of online teaching. I certainly agree that technology is here to stay and anticipate that we can develop technology to enhance learning as well as offer more options to an education. By the way, there is plenty of research now to indicate that the traditional lecture presentation is the least effecient method of teaching. Karen Timberlake Prof. of Chemistry Los Angeles Valley College Van Nuys CA [ Part 36: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:48:25 -0800 From: Bob Bruner Subject: Re: Paper3-WV-Keller Plan At 01:44 PM 2/5/98 -0800, WV wrote -- in part --: > >Another problem that rears its ugly head is that the end of the term >will come along and some folks may not have completed the required >work. If your school wants grades assigned , like most do, you are >faced with the question of incompletes. The students will be unable to >start the next class. Wow! Now you see why the traditional >institutional constraints work against the Keller Plan. > Well, in a strict Keller plan, the grade is based on _how far_ each student gets. For example, students who complete 15 chapters might get an A, students who complete 12 chapters get a B. There would be no incpletes, except for legitimate excuses such as we do now. This certainly does raise issues about coordinating courses. However, one important fact is reflected... no matter what we do, different students learn different amounts. In the traditional plan, we (the teachers) "cover" the same amount, and students learn various fractions of that. Some students never catch on, and learn very little. In the Keller plan, students learn various amounts, but whatever they do learn they learn well. What I like about Keller is the focus on mastery. Students are expected to do quality work. I do agree with reservations that have been expressed about how we define the level of mastery and also about the valuable role of reinforcement. I would just be happy if we could get students to aim for mastery, to always want more. I routinely allow students to upgrade homework and lab reports, by showing clear 'improved' work. The idea, which I tell them quite explicitly, is that learning it on the second try is still good. On occasion, I allow students to upgrade tests. I tell them to "convince me that you now understand _well_ something you missed, and I will give you credit". I do the upgrades one-on-one and ask follow-up questions, to test the understanding. I am fairly demanding with this, but give the points fairly generously. Serious students jump at it. Others say... I got a C, why should I do more? That is what bothers me; they have no personal goal of mastery, or even of making progress. The discussion here these recent weeks has given me renewed energy to try this again. I think it conveys the right attitude to the students (though it is a lot of work). Bob Bruner Contra Costa College, San Pablo, CA and UC Berkeley Extension [ Part 37: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:42:12 -0500 From: Theresa Julia Zielinski Subject: Re: tjz- Paper3-Keller Plan- mastery learning Hi Doris Your question is very interesting. I wrestled with it too as I also feel that I am constantly striving for mastery of this or that and the goal posts always seem to be moving. I have resolved this by considering goals and objectives. At each step if the learning objective is clearly articulated then it is possible to discuss mastery in terms of that particular objective. As one progresses along the continuum of learning the objectives change but mastery is always referred to some set of objectives. This permits revisiting concepts as the objective changes. What do others think? Theresa At 01:27 PM 2/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >I have another problem w/ the Keller Plan: it doesn't allow for the >advantage of multiple exposures to concepts. I think this is a very >important part of learning in chemistry. We introduce a concept (say >equilibrium) in general chemistry and then revisit it as it applies to >organic, analytical, physical, biochem, etc. How do you define "mastery"? >I feel like I still haven't fully "mastered" the concept of equilibrium, >even though I have taught it for many years now. It seems like I develop >new insights into the topic everytime I revisit it, but I don't expect this >level of involvement from my general chemistry students. However, at some >point we have to move on. > >Doris > >Doris R. Kimbrough >Chemistry Department Box 194 >University of Colorado at Denver >Denver, CO 80217-3364 > >dkimbrough@castle.cudenver.edu > Theresa Julia Zielinski Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Niagara University Niagara University, NY 14109 theresaz@localnet.com http://www.niagara.edu/~tjz/ 716-639-0762 (H - voice, voice mail and fax) 716-286-8257 (O - voice and voice mail) [ Part 38: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:01:56 -0800 From: Bob Bruner Subject: Re: #3 BB reply: RL Question on drawing software At 01:21 PM 2/5/98 -0500, RL wrote -- in part --: > >A very good point. I don't teach organic and hence don't have experience >with comparing the usefulness of both methods of representation, but it >seems to me for a student to learn to draw a structure well, he or she must >be able to visualize what the 3D structure looks like, and many organic >courses employ molecular models for that purpose. I would think the CHIME >plug in would be almost as good as models for getting them oriented. For >probing the subtleties of a DNA double helical structure, it sure beats >lugging a big DNA model to class. > I think that models are better at the start of organic. They are, literally, more hands on. And they are truly 3D, not just another 2D representation of 3D. When I first introduce a class to Rasmol (same idea as Chime), I start by showing them a Rasmol view of a molecule that I have a model of (in my hand!). I try to establish that the computer can show them the kind of views that they have gotten used to with the models. Having shown what the computer can do, i then go on to more complex molecules, such as ATP or proteins or DNA. Indeed the models become impractical here. But I don't think I would want to start the students with the computer images. Bob Bruner Contra Costa College, San Pablo, CA and UC Berkeley Extension [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 00:24:42 -0500 From: Michael Chejlava Subject: Re: tjz- Paper3-Keller Plan- mastery learning A spiral approach can be used with the Keller plan if one sets the initial "mastery" level at whatever level is appropriate for each step. Thus a concept such as atomic structure could be revisited several times. The first step might be to the Bohr atom, then the next time around move up to orbitals and electronic structure, and then up to orbital calculations etc. It has become clear that many people realize that personalized learning (Is there any other?) does not fit into the current structure of schools. I think that we are approaching a point where complete change in the way that schools are organized should be made. (I could not bring myself to use the term "paradigm shift".) I think that something close to the school of the future may already exist in the form of the Montessori schools. Unfortunately these only exist at the preschool and primary school level for the most part. -- Michael Chejlava Department of Chemistry & Environmental Science Lake Superior State University Sault Sainte Marie, MI [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 04:36:05 EST From: Walt Volland Subject: Re: Paper3-WV-DL-K Plan-mastery I am developing an online chemistry class for a state wide program here in Washington. This class includes a lab component. All of the Community Colleges here will offer the course. Students from anywhere in the state will have access. The intent here in Washington is to make education as widely accessible as possible. One feature I want to include is open enrollment. This way students can enter the course anytime during the year. The population will be dynamic. Students will be able to progress at their own pace. They then can move to the next stage of their life independently of institutionally set dates. There may be a problem over when grades could be posted. That can be sorted out. There are many colleges that offer open enrollment for courses. A problem is that very few chemistry classes are in the mix. The traditional course time lines of lab schedules, finals, lock step lectures, etc. dominate the way chemistry is taught. The only barrier to implementing the Keller Plan is our imagination and our level of interest. If we continue to view the progress of our students linearly and not spirally we will foster students who deal with or study a concept and drop it thinking they don't need it for the next discussion topic. They will breathe a sigh of relief after an exam and move on. We need to reinforce concepts repeatedly during the progress of a course. The revisitation of ideas should be a natural process during the life of the course. The compartmentalization of ideas that often occurs contributes to the student's mistaken impression that chemistry is a collection of fragmented facts. They don't see the forest for the trees. A simple example of this continued reinforcement of a concept is the continuous use of units and significant digits. I hope that just because these ideas appear early in a course doesn't mean that they are ignored later. Likewise conservation of energy and the minimum energy principle shouldn't pop up in thermochemistry and disappear when bonding is discussed. Mastery in Keller should not be a mystery. We tacitly define mastery in other ways. We just don't say that an A or B student demonstrates mastery. We imply that the student has succeeded or mastered the concepts by assigning some specific grade. Identifying mastery should be no more complicated than deciding on a grading scale. ( Hm, maybe some folks are still grading on a curve out there, so they have a sliding definition for success in their course.) The open lab concept is used at some colleges, but this option is frequently financially difficult to support when lab staff is limited along with limited lab space. Of course lab simulations online or home labs would be a solution to this problem. I've rambled on for quite a while here but I hope this elicits some more lurkers to pop out of their modems. :-) Walt Walt Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu luckybel@aol.com http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:50:53 -0400 From: "Michael D. Seymour" Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing >Scanning in written solutions is possible but would create large files that >would, I am told, occupy acres of server space and take forever to print >out, creating great unhappiness in our campus computer labs. Here's a sample calculation. If one scans in documents and optimizes for saving space (i.e., use only 4 bits = 16 colors since you are posting in B/W only), an average page takes up about 50K when encoded as a GIF. If one scanned and posted 12 homework sets and 4 exam keys at 6 pages each, that's 96 pages. Rounding up to 100 pages at 50K/page would require 5 megabytes storage. That's not too bad, considering that you can't buy a disk with less than 2 GB on it. For a useful mechanism for organizing posted solution sets on the WWW, as well as hosting student and faculty discussion, check out Discus discussion board software at http://www.chem.hope.edu/discus/home To look at a current implemention, go to http://www.chem.hope.edu/chemboard -------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Seymour Internet: seymour@hope.edu Department of Chemistry Hope College Phone: 616-395-7635 Holland, MI 49422-9000 Fax: 616-395-7118 [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:24:01 -0600 From: Barry Miburo Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 4 Feb 1998 to 5 Feb 1998 I have both the old (2.1) and the new (2.51) versions of CHEM 4D DRAW. It's main advantage is that because of ints interactivity, it trains students how to name organic molecules better than instructions on the board or in the textbook. With CHEM 4D DRAW, I have seen tremendous improvements in the way students name compounds. However, its ability to render structures based on names needs tightening. For example, the program will give you the correct structure of 2-methylpentane even if you enter the incorrect name of 2-methylpentyl. So teacher oversight to correct those imperfections is still needed. The new version kind of kills the usefulness of the program for the student by including the ability for students to get also the name from the structure. Some structures can not be obntained from the names. e.g. entering 4-undecen-7,10-diyne will trigger an error message. Submitting the corresponding structure for a name will return "undec-4-ena-7,10-diyne". Do I need updating on IUPAC rules? CHEM 4D DRAW's ability to perform 3-d rotations is skeletic at best. It gives you an illusion of 3-d rotation, but actually it is not. I don't know how to describe it.In an actual 3-d rotation, if you look through the plane of a molecule with one bond directed toward you and on other directed away from you, you would see the bonds clearly oriented in opposite directions. With CHEM 4D DRAW, all the bonds are squashed into the plane line. Hope this helps you in your search for the appropriate software. Barry Miburo Chem. Dept Motlow State Community College Tullahoma, TN 37388 Phone 931-393-1563 Fax 931-393-1999 > > Subject: Re: #3 RL Question on drawing software > Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:15:02 -0500 > From: Robley Light .. I recently got the ad > for the ChemInnovation 4D software, which seems to add the capability of > naming compounds and drawing compounds from names, and information from > them indicates one can do rotations about single bonds. One of my > colleagues has an older ChemDraw program for the MAC that allows drawing > different rotations. > > My question, if appropriate to this group, is has anyone had experience > with more than one of these products to suggest which they feel is easiest > to use? Is it worth investing in another packet to get the conformer > capability? Are there other products to consider? .. > rlight@chem.fsu.edu > > Thanks. > Robley Light > ************************************************************* > Robley J. Light Professor of Chemistry > Department of Chemistry Phone: (850) 644-3844 > Florida State University Email: rlight@chem.fsu.edu > Tallahassee, FL 32306-4390 Fax: (850) 644-8281 > Home Page: http://www.sb.fsu.edu/~rlight > > --------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:28:01 -0800 From: "Armbruster, J.C." Subject: Re: Paper3-WV-DL-K Plan-mastery [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] I've been lurking more than usual, but your comment about the online chemistry class was too good to pass up. Not that I haven't had to give up making passes since I got married. That's what comes of reading letters from Groucho Marx. I work for the Washington State Department of Ecology as a hazardous waste inspector. I have no formal chemistry knowledge, just the incremental knowledge that comes from listening with an ear sensitized to chemistry-related conversations, and the usual dribs and drabs tossed into Scientific American, Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, and the like. I know that my worth as an inspector will increase whenever I learn more chemistry. Question is, how can I do that, and keep working full-time, without neglecting my wife and kids? Dilemma. Possible solution: on-line learning. Your on-line chemistry instruction might be something I could use. I work full-time in Lacey, live in Olympia, and consider myself hazardous waste inspector, father, husband, homeowner/fixer-upper, and full-time Quaker, in multitasking order. Some questions for you (though you may just want to point me to the right paper for the answers--I haven't been keeping track of most of them, just reading the e-mail responses). What's the Keller method? How does a home lab work? What equipment might a typical home lab setup require, and how much space? Oh yeah, and how much might it cost? And some comments: I'm particularly intrigued by your concept of mastery. How would you define it? And I agree, you're correct in wanting people to synthesize chemistry knowledge as a robust system of knowledge, not as "modules" of "facts" and "principles" strung together with vague organizing principles. Ideally, chemistry instruction, like all instruction, should involve the learner both as a living science and as tools for personal enhancement. Now, as I jump off this soapbox . . . . (oof) Lastly, I might be able to serve as a "usability tester" for you as you design this course. I have a degree in technical communication. That means I know how to write, edit, and improve training materials in a wide variety of professions and technical fields. I give training twelve times a year to businesses who generate hazardous waste. And I've also got a good critical eye for what comes across clearly for the first-time learner, such as myself. So, if you'd like me to serve as a clear-eyed reviewer of your on-line materials, maybe I can help. Even if you don't need that kind of "input"--what am I, talking to a computer?--I'd like to know more about on-line chemistry learning. Please tell me more. J.C. (John Clifford) Armbruster Hazardous Waste Specialist Washington State Dept. of Ecology Hazardous Waste/Toxics Reduction Program Southwest Regional Office P.O. Box 47775 Olympia, WA 98504-7775 (360) 407-6349 (work) (360) 943-8866 (home) jcarmbruster@earthlink.net (home e-mail) [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:40:46 -0800 From: Maureen Scharberg Subject: Re: Paper3-Keller Plan lferrier wrote: > > I am having difficulty trying to image how the Keller Plan would actually > work in my classroom. For example, if some students are still being tested > on Chapter 2 and the rest of the class has moved on to Chapter 3, how will > the former students "catch up" with the new material? It has been my observations that these students would have to play catch-up anyway. Using your example, while the entire class was working on Chapter 2, a few students perhaps did not study this chapter. These are the students who will be behind while the class moves on to Chapter 3. Now, let's say you give a midterm on Chapters 1-3 instead of a weekly mastery quiz. These students could be even further behind with no opportunity for mastering the material until the next midterm. I would rather students be behind by a week than by 3-4 weeks! Most students inform me that the weekly mastery quizzes help them stay on top of the material. If they do have an "off week", they work harder to catch up with the last week's material and learn the current week's material. My curriculum is organized as a spiral curriculum---that is, I keep building on the previous week's chemistry concepts and topics instead of switching to brand new, unrelated concepts. Maureen Scharberg Department of Chemistry San Jose State University [ Part 12: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:44:22 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: Paper3-WV-DL-K Plan-mastery [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Thanks for the interest. Your situation is exactly what I had in mind when I started this project. I'll stay in touch. By the way where and when did you do you technical communictions undergrad work? The lab set up cost will be minimal. It will be relatively simple. Either a kit will be assembled and sent out or the materials will be commercially available on the open market. No complicated pricey glassware or instrumentation. Cost for a kit would be in the range of $30-50. You would probably keep the kit. Restocking is frequently a logistical problem. Keller method a self paced mastery approach to course content. You move from topic to topic after achieving "passing" or "mastery" levels of performance. You can retake quizzes or exams until you pass. Please stay in touch Walt Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:38:03 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: paper 3 tjz - doing it all themselves [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Theresa Zielinski writes: > Dear Colleagues > > TOH wrote > > >I know they'd learn more if I forced > >them to create everything for themselves from scratch > > This is an interesting and accurate observation and I can appreciate it as > I too think this way. ====== I suppose we might agree that students would "learn more" if they did everyting from scratch, but what would they learn more of? Seems to me we should do things from scratch sto get the basic understanding, and then move to use the tools that save the time, and reduce errors the errors that come from doing things the "hard" way. === > However, in the context of a 3 credit course and > multiple demands on student time and academic resources a compromise is > necessary. I like giving students some stuff to do from scratch and some to > do with templates. The best templates have some interactive components so > that the students don't get the 'lecture numbness' disease while using > software to learn concepts. ==== What is meant by a software template? And why would their use produce a "lecture numbness" and more than learning to solve problems in the lecture "template", or doing it by "scratch"? There are software programs out there that can facilitate "paper and pencil" learning more efficiently than templates. ==== > It seems we must maintain a balance between > developing skills with a tool, using a tool adequately vs. exquisitely, and > learning efficiency. At the end of several years of study students will be > able to use many tools adequately and only a few exquisitely. With their > adequate skills in most areas given the right materials to work with they > can learn a lot very quickly. They can even become exquisite users of new > tools on their own if they wish. === Difficult for me to understand why we worry about how well students use tools. The focus should be initially on whether they understand why the tool works - but once that is grasped, let them move on. Obviously some will be more adept at the use of a tool than others - depending upon the difficulty of the problem to be solved with the tool, and the time and talent needed to become proficient. === Finally, I don't believe that the more work spent on a task is necessarily equivalent to more learning. Don't most of us wish that each work period was correlated with something learned? ==== Bert Ramsay [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:15:41 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: paper-3-wv tools & different students > Bert Ramsay > > Tuesday, February 10, 1998 11:38 AM > doing it all themselves > > > With their > > adequate skills in most areas given the right materials to work with > they > > can learn a lot very quickly. They can even become exquisite users > of new > > tools on their own if they wish. > === > Difficult for me to understand why we worry about how well students > use > tools. The focus should be initially on whether they understand why > the > tool works - but once that is grasped, let them move on. Obviously > some > will be more adept at the use of a tool than others - depending upon > the > difficulty of the problem to be solved with the tool, and the time and > talent needed to become proficient. > === > Finally, I don't believe that the more work spent on a task is > necessarily equivalent to more learning. Don't most of us wish that > each > work period was correlated with something learned? > ==== > Bert Ramsay > > There are valid elements in both philosophies; however, I want my students to be willing to shift from one "tool" to another. If students learn how to use one piece of software and cannot shift to a new one then the tool use controlling the student. I want flexible thinkers who are brave enough intellectually to attempt some new approach and question established orthodoxy. Students benefit greatly if they develop the ability to learn and adjust to changing situations and problem conditions. If this is included in the definition of tools then I'm all for tools. I have had students with completed law degrees, math degrees, electrical engineering degrees, psychology degrees, retired Microsoft employees, etc in my classes. Typically they are interested in a new career in medicine, dentistry or relelated field. > Dr. Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue WA 98007 > 425-641-2467 > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/a101-140homepage.html >