Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:17:03 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: SHORT QUESTIONS FOR PAPER 1 To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal Re: SHORT QUESTIONS FOR PAPER 1 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It is 11 AM Eastern Standard Time on Friday, January 16. During the next 24 hours you may send SHORT QUESTIONS about Paper 1 - "FROM PRE-SCHOOL TO DEATH: Life-Long Learning and the ACS Division of Education" by Sylvia Ware to the author and the conference participants. SHORT QUESTIONS are sent to clarify aspects of the paper, obtain more information from the author and/or conference participants and help to promote subsequent discussion. Answers to SHORT QUESTIONS will be sent at the beginning of the discussion on Monday. DISCUSSION of Paper 1 will begin on Monday, January 19 and continue ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ through Thursday January 22. The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh/ChemConf98.html Short Questions should be sent to CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU Please include the PAPER NUMBER, YOUR INITIALS AND THE TOPIC IN THE SUBJECT LINE, e.g. "Paper 1 - AB: Non Scientists and the ACS". These messages will be received by the author AND the conference registrants. Please send ASCII only messages with no more than 72 characters per ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ line and no attachments. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ To send comments or questions privately to the author of the paper, send your message to the author's e-mail address given in the paper. Reports of typographical errors, spelling or grammatical errors should be sent directly to the author and not to CHEMCONF. [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:20:49 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Discussion of Selected Topics at the end of the Conferenc 1998 SCHOOL YEAR ON-LINE CONFERENCE January 16 to May 15, 1998 Donald Rosenthal and Thomas O'Haver Clarkson University University of Maryland Potsdam NY 13699-5810 College Park MD 20742 315-265-9242 301-405-1831 rosen1@clvm.clarkson.edu to2@umail.umd.edu As the result of our on-line discussion during the fall of 1997, we have decided to add three weeks of discussion at the end of the conference. We need your assistance in identifying three or more topics for this extended discussion. Please send your suggestions privately to Donald Rosenthal (rosen1@clvm.clarkson.edu) between April 20 and April 23. On-line discussion via CHEMCONF will begin on April 24. The schedule is revised as follows: April 24 to May 15, 1998 - General Discussion of Selected Topics and Conference Evaluation [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:22:24 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 1 - DR: SQ about Activities and Materials To: Sylvia Ware Re: Short Questions about Paper 1 I found your article to be very interesting. I have a few questions. 1. In your paper you mention the "Pre-college Science" and "College Chemistry and Continuing Education" subcommittees of SOCED ACS Committee on Education). Who are the members of these subcommittees? 2. You mention six ACS approved chemistry-based technician programs. Which schools are approved? How do these programs compare to ACS approved BS programs? 3. In your paper you mention a lot of materials (books, pamphlets, newsletters, CD ROMS and videos) and many different programs (ChemCom, Chemistry in Context, FACETS, SciTeKS, CBC, satellite TV seminars, Project Seed and CTPAS). I wonder if these materials will be available at the BCCE Conference at the University of Waterloo. Perhaps the ACS Education Division could organize a symposium at the 2000 BCCE which would provide more information about all these diverse programs. 4. At one time the ACS was producing (weekly?) audio tapes which could be used by local radio station to provide information about chemistry (and society). Was this an Education Division initiative? Does this activity still exist? Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:30:44 -0500 From: Tim Champion Subject: Paper #1: TC: a.CPT? b. Cont. Ed.and Academics? [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:17:13 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: Re: Paper 1 - ME: SQ about Activities and Materials [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Short Questions about Paper 1 First, let me say that I believe the ACS educational division is certainly doing an outstanding job in providing materials that can enhance and support the chemistry education curriculum. That being said, I do have a few questions: 1. You said: "The continuing education programs for mid-career chemists tend to attract a predominately industrial audience, around 5,000 chemists a year. ACS Short Courses are one- to five-day seminars on a broad range of chemistry topics that range in level from basic survey courses to state-of-the-art presentations from internationally renowned researchers". There is a reason, of course, for attendance of a "predominately industrial" audience. The cost of the courses is very high and certainly out of the range of most educational institutions (at least the smaller ones) and personal (such as mine) pocketbooks. Have you ever considered (a) offering these courses at a substantial discount to academics or (b) cooperating with local ACS sections and associated academic institutions to host such courses for their membership at a discount. Otherwise, professional development by this method will be restricted to industrial and government audiences. Certainly, organizations such as the Pittsburgh Conference, Federation of Analytical Chemistry and Spectroscopy Societies, Eastern Analytical Symposium, and the Society for Applied Spectroscopy offer courses at much lower prices, but they can't match the breadth of topic coverage that the ACS can provide. Why can't you do the same (and make us feel better about paying our ACS dues). 2. You used to offer audio courses with an associated manual covering a wide range of topics. This was a reasonably priced and effective program that seems to have been replaced by more pricey video and multimedia courses. Why? 3. You target "Chemistry in Context" to non-science majors and ChemMatters to high-school students, yet in many aspects BOTH of these are quite useful for science majors ... particularly as an enhancement of the curriculum. Aren't you neglecting an important aspect of these educational materials by marketing them to a lower level audience than necessary? I certainly found both of them useful in both analytical and general chemistry courses. Again, I do think you are doing a great job in many aspects and my interactions with ACS dealing with educational issues has always been good. Thanks... Mike Epstein ================================================== Mike Epstein Research Chemist, NIST, Gaithersburg, Maryland [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Mike_S_Epstein@msn.com Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html Check out our new Spectrochemical Methods Group Page at NIST: http://www.cstl.nist.gov/nist839/839.01/spectro.htm "Standardization is a euphemism for monopoly" ... Ralph Nader at the Appraising Microsoft Conference, Nov 13-14, 1997 [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:26:06 -0500 From: Don Jones Subject: Re: Paper #1: TC: a.CPT? b. Cont. Ed.and Academics? Perhaps I can help here since I have been intmately involved with all of the entities described below. >I have two short questions re: Paper #1 > >a. What is the relationship between the Education Division (and for that >matter, DivCHED and SOCED) and the ACS Committee on Professional >Training? The Education Division is the operating arm of SOCED. It has approximately 35 paid staff involved in all levels of education. It is an integral part of the SOCED except that SOCED meets less often and is not a paid group of people but volunteers as are all committees of ACS. SOCED is the guiding comittee of the governance portion of the ACS. SOCED is short for the Society Committee on Chemical Education. It consists of 15 members and approximately 10 associate members who provide guidance to the Education Division through the Education Division Director, Sylvia. It often has fostered special conferences on topics of special interest. It has been operated with a subcommittee structure since its formation back about 1980. The committees are structured mostly by level of educational activity but these are the perogatives of the chair of SOCED. It also sponsors the approval process for Chemical Technology programs, currently 6 approved ones. DivCHED is the volunteer group interested in education. There are some 5,000 members who pay dues of about $15 (up from$10) to receive mailings and information about education materials, activities, etc. It is the owner and publisher of J. Chem Ed. as well as the Examinations Institute. None of the members of this Division are paid except those who are the principals in the publishing arm. It organizes the education program for all ACS meetings, 'owns' and guides the Biennial Conferences on Chemical Education along with a myriad of other activities, including fostering the Two Year College Comittee. It cooperates with SOCED and the Education Division but there are no formal govenance ties to them nor to CPT. CPT is an Other Joint Committee of the Council and Board of Directors. The president of the Society and the Chair of Board of Trustees jointly appoint the membership and chair of this committee. It can have up to 15 members but does not use associates due to the confidential nature of its work. It at one time had a close tie with the Education Division. It currently reports to the Secretary of the Society although its budget is administered by the Education Division. It has two or three paid persons to do the day to day work who are in the main office. The Secretary of this committee is one of these. SOCED, the Education Division, DivCHED, all report back and forth about what is going on. There is no formal requirement for CPT to report to any of these entities however. All of these groups attempt to get the very best people that they can. SOCED and CPT usually have appointed to them, people of outstanding reputation. Of course there are other issues of balance of various kinds in making all appointments. > >b. Many ACS short courses that are of more interest to nonacademic >chemists are also usually priced beyond the range that most academic >institutions can afford (at least mine). Has an educator's discount >ever been considered? Such discounts have LONG been available on a space available basis. It is seldom that there are takers. Many of the short courses can have very large enrollments while others are strictly limited. If there is equipment to be taken then the cost of these materials must be paid by the participant. Contact Harry Walsh for more up to date information. Of course the short course group will not turn away a paying customer for a non paying one so for those with limited space you may not know if you can attend free or at sharply reduced rates until close to the time of the short course. Hope these answers help. Don Donald E. Jones Program Director Teacher Enhancement Program Elementary, Secondary and Informal Education National Science Foundation the Internet: djones@nsf.gov Telephone (703) 306-1613 x6819 Fax: (703) 306-0412 NSF's home page url: http://www.nsf.gov Guidelines and announcements: http://www.nsf.gov/home/programs/recent.htm [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:00:06 -0600 From: Gabriela Weaver Subject: Paper #1 - GCW: SQ about Project SEED I'm interested in the Project SEED program. I know some faculty members who have been mentors for Project SEED students and I am happy to hear that your studies show success among the participants. Do you have a reference for the longitudinal study that you mention? I would be very interested in seeing it. Also, has any thought been given to expanding this program? Gabriela Weaver Assistant Professor University of Colorado at Denver Chemistry Department Campus Box 194 P. O. Box 173364 Denver, CO 80217-3364 Phone: (303) 556-3201 Fax: (303) 556-4776 [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:12:37 -0500 From: Oliver Seely Subject: SQ about high school chemistry club Sylvia, Do you have a target date for the installation of your virtual chemistry club for high school students? If so I'll begin to make plans to retire my list Chemistry Telementoring (or set up a link to yours) at that time. Oliver Seely [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:35:50 -0600 From: "Dr. David Ritter" Subject: Re: SHORT QUESTIONS FOR PAPER 1 At 11:17 AM 1/16/98 EST, you wrote: ... > The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: > http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh/ChemConf98.html > When I try to access the above site, I get to a message which says to go to http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/Chemistry/ChemConference/ChemConf98 and when I try this one, I get a Document contains no data netscape error. What am I doing wrong? DR David Ritter Department of Chemistry Southeast Missouri State University dritter@semovm.semo.edu David Ritter Department of Chemistry Southeast Missouri State University dritter@semovm.semo.edu [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:52:14 -0500 From: Julie Hust Subject: unsubscribe Hi, I hate to send this to everyone, but what is the address to unsubscribe to the list? Please send an email to me personally at email to: hustj@muohio.edu thanks. [ Part 12: "Included Message" ] Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:57:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Re: SHORT QUESTIONS FOR PAPER 1 The "Document contains no data" error message can pop up now and then on any normal Web page. It's usually a temporary problem. Try again in a few seconds and it's likely to work just fine. Who knows what it means.... Maybe just weary networks and servers.... Tom O'Haver >At 11:17 AM 1/16/98 EST, you wrote: >... >> The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: >> http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh/ChemConf98.html >> >When I try to access the above site, I get to a message which says to go to > >http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/Chemistry/ChemConference/ChemConf98 > >and when I try this one, I get a Document contains no data netscape error. >What am I doing wrong? >DR >David Ritter >Department of Chemistry >Southeast Missouri State University >dritter@semovm.semo.edu >David Ritter >Department of Chemistry >Southeast Missouri State University >dritter@semovm.semo.edu [ Part 13: "Included Message" ] Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:14:16 +0900 From: Hideyuki Kanematsu Subject: SHORT QUESTION FOR PAPER 1 Short question for paper1 Dear Sylvia, you wrote in the paragraph, "Professional Development", of your interesting paper as follows: >Beyond that, the role of the teacher in the classroom is changing > from the old-style of authority figure to "manager" of the students' >learning. This move from the teacher-centered classroom to the >student-as learner involves teachers in new style of teaching and >assessing learning. Would you please explain about the statement a little bit more concretely? Maybe most of participants in this congress can understand the movement of the teacher's role in the classroom. But I am a Japanese college teacher and our situation is a little bit different >from yours. "The old style" means the class where the teacher gives the lecture one-sidedly, doesn't it? Yes, I know the style very well, because it is the most general one also here in Japan. But what do you mean by student-as learner class room concretely? I would like to know several concrete examples. Sorry for my late question due to the time difference. I hope that this would be still in time. Regards. Hide ----------------------------------------------------- Hideyuki Kanematsu web page (tentative): phone:+81-593-68-1849 (direct) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:38:56 EST From: SACROMWARE Subject: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ANSWERS TO DON ROSENTHAL S QUESTIONS 1. The two subcommittees of the Society Committee on Education (SOCED) are comprised of members and associates of the full committee. Appointments are made by the ACS incoming President and the ACS Chairman of the Board for terms of one, two, or three years. The 1998 committee is not yet in place so I can t give you current names for about two more weeks. Two-thirds of the full members must be ACS councillors. We do know this year s chair -- it is Don Jones of NSF. 2. The six approved schools for technician programs are 1)the Community College of Rhode Island; 2) St. Louis Community College at Florissant Valley; 3) Delaware Technical College; 4) Serris State University (Grand Rapids, MI); 5)Texas State Technical College (Waco); and, 6) Southeast Community College (Lincoln, Nebraska). The program approval applies to a two-year associate degree program not a four-year program. Otherwise there are many similarities between this program and the BS program. The following are evaluated as part of the process of approval: Curriculum, faculty, library holdings, placement/counselling services, safety, etc. 3.We will be present at the BCCE in Waterloo with all the materials mentioned. We will also be at the meeting in 2000. We tend to give papers about our work in different symposia, but if anyone is interested in a complete symposium devoted to the work of the Education Division we can provide that too. 4. The audiotapes you mentioned, initially called ^?Men and Molecules^? were not produced by the Education Division. The program was terminated several years ago for cost/benefit reasons. ANSWERS TO MIKE EPSTEIN S QUESTIONS 1. a) As Don Jones wrote in his comments, we do offer an academic discount to ACS members from academia. There is a 70% discount, i.e., the fee is 30% off the regular member rate. Note that this discount is available for the lab short courses (which have a limited enrollment) on a space available basis only. Unemployed members may attend short courses free -- again the lab courses are space available only. b) We have had a special program for local sections for several years. Local sections may offer an ACS two-day short course for $300 to $400 (compare full cost of $825-$925). Details of this program and its stipulations are in the booklet that is given out to local section officers at the local section officers conferences. Or, contact Harry Walsh at h_walsh@acs.org for more info. 2. We terminated the audio courses because so few people were buying them and we were losing accelerating amounts of money from year to year. (Continuing Education is a self-sustaining program.) 3. I agree, Chemistry in Context and ChemMatters can be much more broadly used than we market them. A number of institutions do use Chemistry in Context for material for majors courses. Thanks for your kind remarks. -- I hope my answer to question 1 makes you feel even more kindly. ANSWERS TO OLIVER SEELY S QUESTIONS 1. We hope that the chemistry club pages will be up by mid-year. We want to change the page every month and want to have a six -month back up of programs in hand before we begin. 2. When we start the answer page portion of these web pages we will be contacting you for your advice. ANSWERS TO GABRIELA WEAVER S QUESTIONS 1. I would love to expand the SEED program. As always it is a matter of money. We want to pay our students at least what they would get at a fast food restaurant. The stipends come from income from the endowment and our annual funs raising. If anyone reading this would like to add to the endowment we would be extraordinarily grateful. 2. You can get more information on the SEED evaluation study by contacting m_tinnesand or c_brennan@acs.org ANSWERS TO HIDE KANEMATSU S QUESTIONS 1. Yes, a teacher-centered classroom implies that the teacher is doing a lot of lecturing and the students are doing a lot of listening. In a student- centered classroom, the teacher is more likely to use a)cooperative learning techniques where students work in groups with each other, sharing ideas and working jointly on answers to problems b) project work, either lab or library based that has the students doing much of the research and designing their own labs (rather than following ^?cook-book^? instructions) c) students as tutors for their peers. Basically any activity that encourages the active participation of students in the class: sharing data, exchanging opinions, asking questions, etc. is a move from the teacher-centered to the student- centered classroom. This shift can be very intimidating for many teachers but facilitates the student s learning. Sylvia Ware Education Division ACS 1155 Sixteenth Street, NW Washington, DC 20036 [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:53:33 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: BEGIN DISCUSSION OF PAPER 1 To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU Re: BEGIN DISCUSSION OF PAPER 1 It is 8 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time - 1300 GMT) on Monday, January 19 The next 96 hours will be devoted to discussion of Paper 1 - "FROM PRE-SCHOOL TO DEATH: Life-Long Learning and the ACS Division of Education" by Sylvia Ware The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh/ChemConf98.html Messages should be sent to CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU Please include the PAPER NUMBER, YOUR INITIALS AND THE TOPIC IN THE SUBJECT LINE, e.g. "Paper 1 - AB: Non Scientists and the ACS". These messages will be received by the author AND the conference registrants. Please send ASCII only messages with no more than 72 characters per ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ line and no attachments. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Appropriately labelled subject lines will be useful in sorting out the various discussion threads. Only discussion which is sent from the SAME MAIL ADDRESS from which you subscribed will be accepted and distributed to participants. Place your name, affiliation and e-mail address at the end of your message. Remember that messages sent to CHEMCONF will be distributed to all participants. As a courtesy to other participants, please keep your messages concise and avoid irrelevant, redundant, and personal comments ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ which are not of general interest. A very helpful technique is to quote a small passage from that paper or message in your response and to place a ">" character at the beginning of each quoted line, e.g.: > We used the....so-and-so...in order to.... We tried that too, but we found that.... 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To resume receipt of messages, send the message: SET CHEMCONF MAIL to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU Signing Off ^^^^^^^^^^^ In the event you wish to sign off CHEMCONF, please send the one line message: SIGNOFF CHEMCONF to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU Note that each of the above commands is sent to: LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD and NOT CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU --------------------------------------- SCHEDULE ^^^^^^^^ January 19 to 22 - Discussion of Paper 1 January 23 to 29 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 2 January 29 to Feb. 5 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 3 February 6 to 12 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 4 February 13 to 19 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 5 February 20 to 26 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 6 February 27 to Mar. 5 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 7 March 6 to 12 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 8 March 13 to 19 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 9 March 20 to 26 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 10 April 10 to 16 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 11 April 17 to 23 - Short Questions and Discussion of Paper 12 April 24 to May 15 - Evaluation and Discussion of Selected Topics If you need HELP, please send an e-mail message to: Tom O'Haver at to2@umail.umd.edu and NOT TO CHEMCONF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ======================================================================= [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:09:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context and Student-Centered Classrooms I wish to second Mike Epstein's positive comments concerning ACS's Chemistry and Context text. I used it to teach a non-science-majors intro chemistry course as part of an NSF grant to train future middle school science teachers, who are normally elementary education majors on our campus. This particular group of students takes only this one chemistry course (but they also take courses in physics, biology, earth science, plus a lot of math). Part of the aim of our program is to develop the students' pedagogical content knowledge as well as science conceptual knowledge. So I could not just "wimp out" and teach a standard passive-lecture course that is crammed with instructor-satisfying content. I had to teach in a way that would serve as a model for their own future middle-school classes. The Chemistry and Context text was ideal for this sort of course because it embeds relevant chemical principles within the larger context of important societal and environmental issues. This orientation, combined with suitable active class, laboratory, and technology activities, helped to push the course a little more in the "student-centered" direction. (Even so, I still have a lot to learn about all this). Tom -------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry and Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation The University of Maryland at College Park to2@umail.umd.edu http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:39:06 -0600 From: "Dr. David Ritter" Subject: Re: SHORT QUESTIONS FOR PAPER 1 Tom: Thank you for your insightful suggestions. Unfortunately, I already tried repeatedly over extended periods of time; I am not a Web newbie, however I am not a guru, either. Just in case anyone else is having similar problems, I can get your links to work if I copy one to the clipboard, paste it to the address line, and add a slash. Not what I would call "intuitively obvious". Please wave as you pass me by chugging along the shoulder of the info superhighway :-) DR At 03:57 PM 1/16/98 EST, you wrote: >The "Document contains no data" error message can pop up >now and then on any normal Web page. It's usually a >temporary problem. Try again in a few seconds and it's >likely to work just fine. Who knows what it means.... >Maybe just weary networks and servers.... > >Tom O'Haver > >>At 11:17 AM 1/16/98 EST, you wrote: >>... >>> The paper can be retrieved from the Conference World Wide Web Site: >>> http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh/ChemConf98.html >>> >>When I try to access the above site, I get to a message which says to go to >> >>http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/Chemistry/ChemConference/ChemConf98 >> >>and when I try this one, I get a Document contains no data netscape error. >>What am I doing wrong? >>DR >>David Ritter >>Department of Chemistry >>Southeast Missouri State University >>dritter@semovm.semo.edu >>David Ritter >>Department of Chemistry >>Southeast Missouri State University >>dritter@semovm.semo.edu > David Ritter Department of Chemistry Southeast Missouri State University dritter@semovm.semo.edu [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:54:58 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: Paper #1 - ME: Response to ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS Note to the list: I apologize if this is a duplicate posting. I had some connection difficulty and did not get a confirmation of distribution. I wanted to be sure my response was posted ... ME >ANSWERS TO MIKE EPSTEIN'S QUESTIONS >1. a) As Don Jones wrote in his comments, we do offer an academic discount to >ACS members from academia. There is a 70% discount, i.e., the fee is 30% off >the regular member rate. Note that this discount is available for the lab >short courses (which have a limited enrollment) on a space available basis >only. Unemployed members may attend short courses free -- again the lab >courses are >space available only. > b) We have had a special program for local sections for several years. Local >sections may offer an ACS two-day short course for $300 to $400 (compare full >cost of $825-$925). Details of this program and its stipulations are in the >booklet that is given out to local section officers at the local section >officers conferences. Or, contact Harry Walsh at h_walsh@acs.org for more >info. Thanks .... I was not aware of these programs, even as a former ACS instructor (albeit some 20 years ago). I am particularly impressed by the special program for local sections. Are there any special considerations here (i.e., what expenses do the local sections have to pick up)? I don't recall our local sections (either Baltimore or Washington) ever doing this, so there must be a good reason :-) >2. We terminated the audio courses because so few people were buying them and >we were losing accelerating amounts of money from year to year. (Continuing >Education is a self-sustaining program.) I'm surprised, although I do know the amount of work and professional facilities used in preparing these courses (i.e., use of professional recording studios, editing, etc.). I'm just musing here, but I do wonder about the reasons behind the reduction in sales (i.e., ? marketing strategies). The courses were rarely (and in a few cases, never) updated although sales of some of these courses in their initial years were high. There just seemed to be so many possible uses. Consider the number of scientists who are commuters with tape decks in their cars ... and who who prefer to learn something rather than listen to some of the drivel filling the air waves. I would think that the tapes would have been ideal for library use ... yet for some reason I never see them in libraries (certainly not in ours, which is one of the best). I should note that I possess several of the courses, and they have been very useful. Anyway, thanks again for explaining what happened. >3. I agree, Chemistry in Context and ChemMatters can be much more broadly used >than we market them. A number of institutions do use Chemistry in Context for >material for majors courses. And ChemMatters as well. I have found the Mystery Matters section to be very useful for analytical chemistry applications. >Thanks for your kind remarks. -- I hope my answer to question 1 makes you feel >even more kindly. I realize the difficulties and trade-offs involved in running a financially "self-sustaining" program, which makes it more difficult to do what conferences (who have other sources of income) can do in pricing short courses. Perhaps the program shouldn't be so "self-sustaining", but that's not something you can control. In any event, I do appreciate your answers and I'm definitely feeling more kindly! :-) Mike Epstein Research Chemist National Institute of Standards and Technology Michael.Epstein@nist.gov http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html Check out our new Spectrochemical Methods Group page at: http://www.cstl.nist.gov/nist839/839.01/spectro.htm --------- "This is indeed a mystery" remarked Watson. "What do you imagine that it means?" "I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." -- Sherlock Holmes, A Scandal in Bohemia --------- Mike Epstein Research Chemist National Institute of Standards and Technology Michael.Epstein@nist.gov http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html Check out our new Spectrochemical Methods Group page at: http://www.cstl.nist.gov/nist839/839.01/spectro.htm --------- "This is indeed a mystery" remarked Watson. "What do you imagine that it means?" "I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." -- Sherlock Holmes, A Scandal in Bohemia --------- [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:58:30 EST From: SACROMWARE Subject: Re: Paper #1 - ME: Response to ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ANSWERS TO MIKE EPSTEIN 1.Re local section short courses: The section is responsible for publicizing the course which can be done through local section newsletters. ACS pays the instructor s honorarium and expenses and provides the manuals. The course runs if there are more than 10 people otherwise it is cancelled. Depending on the number of people attending, whether or not there are non ACS members attending, and what the local section decides to charge (which can be more than our minimum), the local section can make money on the arrangement. Incidentally, we received a request for information on this program from the MD Local Section in December, and it is now under consideration. 2. We accelerated our audio course marketing, produced new courses based on surveys of customers, and for five years straight the sales took a dive, and the costs went up! By the time we terminated the program the gap was horrendous. If there were more like you, the program might have survied. Listening to tapes in the car apparently had little appeal because mosr users wanted to read from the manual (diagrams, charts, equations) at the same time. Sylvia [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:59:58 -0500 From: "Richard O. Pendarvis" Subject: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context I would agree that Chemistry in Context is a good idea and even a good first effort. However, data from a publishers survey not too long ago indicate that it has the lowest satisfaction rate of any text for non-majors chemistry. We found that our students had difficulty following it in our non-majors course. Expanding the scope of non-majors chemistry is important. In many if not most schools, students who are not science majors can satisfy their physical science requirements in a variety of ways (geology, non-majors physics, astronomy, "physical science" etc.) This means that a lot of future elementary teachers if not most educated people will graduate without learning any chemistry except for the tiny bit covered in those courses or biology survey courses. In short, most "chemistry" is now being taught by people who may not know a lot of chemistry. /* Richard */ #include - - ____ | | _ | | Organic Chemistry / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming / \ | | / \ || Pizza / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:01:42 +0900 From: Hideyuki Kanematsu Subject: Paper #1:Re: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS [The following text is in the "ISO-2022-JP" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Dear Ms. Sylvia Ware: Thank you very much for your answer. Just before your answer, I received a private email from Professor O'Haver and he let me know the several web sites relating to Student Centered Classroom(SCC). So I could make a sketch for SCC relatively easily. Then I read your answer and I believe now that I understand the movement in your country pretty well. Of course, several trials like yours can be seen on private basis also here in Japan. But we have not reformed our style of classrooms on full scale yet, even though most of us may become keenly aware of the reform. But recently some feedback systems like self-evaluation for teacher's activity or evaluation for it in classrooms by students themselves have been introduced and generalized. So I guess that those feedback systems will bring us some reforms in the classroom style like yours in the near future.... And we, Japanese college teachers may have to be intimidated like your teachers soon. Anyway, from the view point, your answer was very useful for me. And at the same time, it made me possible to understand your (ACS education division) activity much more precisely. Thank you once again for your interesting answer. In a message dated Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:38:56 EST, you wrote: > ANSWERS TO HIDE KANEMATSU S QUESTIONS > > 1. Yes, a teacher-centered classroom implies that the teacher is doing a lot > of lecturing and the students are doing a lot of listening. In a student- > centered classroom, the teacher is more likely to use a)cooperative learning > techniques where students work in groups with each other, sharing ideas and > working jointly on answers to problems b) project work, either lab or library > based that has the students doing much of the research and designing their own> labs (rather than following $B%[ (Bcook-book $B%7 (B instructions) c) students as tutors > for their peers. Basically any activity that encourages the active > participation of students in the class: sharing data, exchanging opinions, > asking questions, etc. is a move from the teacher-centered to the student- > centered classroom. This shift can be very intimidating for many teachers > but facilitates the student s learning. > Regards. Hide ---------------------------------------- Hideyuki Kanematsu web page (tentative): Associate Professor, Dr.Eng. Dept. MS & E. Suzuka National College of Technology Address:Shiroko-cho, Suzuka, Mie 510-02, JAPAN Phone:+81-593-68-1849 (direct) FAX:+81-593-87-0338 [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 06:46:00 EST From: to2 Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context > However, data from a publishers survey not too long ago indicate >that [Chemistry in Context] has the lowest satisfaction rate of any >text for non-majors chemistry. We found that our students had >difficulty following it in our non-majors course. That is disturbing news. Have other participants used the Chemistry in Context text? Opinions? I also considered using Snyder's "Extraordinary Chemistry..." which is more conventionally organized and contains TONS of interesting chemistry information. But I went with CiC because I thought its issue-oriented structure would be better suited to future middle-school teachers, considering the integrated-science orientation of most middle-school science curricula. What are some other possible texts for a non-science-majors course? Tom -------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Haver Professor of Analytical Chemistry Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry and Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation The University of Maryland at College Park to2@umail.umd.edu http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:18:44 -0500 From: "Richard O. Pendarvis" Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, to2 wrote: > > However, data from a publishers survey not too long ago indicate > >that [Chemistry in Context] has the lowest satisfaction rate of any > >text for non-majors chemistry. We found that our students had > >difficulty following it in our non-majors course. > > That is disturbing news. Have other participants used the > Chemistry in Context text? Opinions? I also considered using > Snyder's "Extraordinary Chemistry..." which is more conventionally > organized and contains TONS of interesting chemistry information. > But I went with CiC because I thought its issue-oriented structure > would be better suited to future middle-school teachers, considering > the integrated-science orientation of most middle-school science > curricula. We like "Extraordinary Chemistry of Ordinary Things" for the reasons you outlined as well as overall readability. /* Richard */ #include - - ____ | | _ | | Organic Chemistry / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming / \ | | / \ || Pizza / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:29:37 -0400 From: "Jeff C. Davis, Jr." Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context After several years of enthusiastic use of Chemistry in Context I have come to the conclusion that (a) chemistry faculty often don't understand its intent or structure and so tend to downgrade its usefulness, and (b) some topics are not fleshed out sufficiently for the students to understand what often are quite new extensions of their knowledge and use of concepts. In general, for example, topics such as formulas and balanced chemical equations, Lewis diagrams, quantitative amounts in chemical reactions, etc., are introduced nicely but there are insufficient examples and not enough discussion of where the ideas come from, how they are related to the real world via experiments, and guidelines (rules?) for using these concepts systematically. It is a big leap for many of them from the discussion in the text to the questions at the end of the chapter. As a result I have had to supplement topics such as these with additional material in the form of hand-outs, not material that goes to higher (inappropriate) levels but material that provides systematic coverage with with enough examples of step by step use of the concept that students can come to grips with an idea and then use it. One of the failings, if you want to call it that, of Chemistry in Context is that it doesn't really show chemistry as a science and many students really don't appreciate how science operates. They don't see enough examples of where ideas come from (hypotheses and experimental support) and how these ideas change and evolve over time as new data is obtained. I think for many of them there is still a strong flavor of choosing from among a number of "facts" and drawing a conclusion which doesn't seem to get much beyond having an opinion in many cases. I'd stick with Chemistry in Context, however, since the others too easily lend themselves to a traditional approach in which one keeps laying out facts and examples without exploring why facts are facts and theories are theories or really show how decisions are made. Jeff C. Davis, Jr. Prof. and Chair Dept. of Chemistry Univ. of South Florida to2 wrote: > > However, data from a publishers survey not too long ago indicate > >that [Chemistry in Context] has the lowest satisfaction rate of any > >text for non-majors chemistry. We found that our students had > >difficulty following it in our non-majors course. > > That is disturbing news. Have other participants used the > Chemistry in Context text? Opinions? I also considered using > Snyder's "Extraordinary Chemistry..." which is more conventionally > organized and contains TONS of interesting chemistry information. > But I went with CiC because I thought its issue-oriented structure > would be better suited to future middle-school teachers, considering > the integrated-science orientation of most middle-school science > curricula. > > What are some other possible texts for a non-science-majors course? > > Tom > -------------------------------------------------- > Tom O'Haver > Professor of Analytical Chemistry > Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry > and Maryland Collaborative for Teacher Preparation > The University of Maryland at College Park > to2@umail.umd.edu > http://www.wam.umd.edu/~toh [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:18:25 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: ROP Paper #1: Chemistry in Context Tools [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] FROM: Bert Ramsay Jeff Davis writes: "... As a result I have had to supplement topics such as these with additional material in the form of hand-outs, not material that goes to higher (inappropriate) levels but material that provides systematic coverage with enough examples of step by step use of the concept that students can come to grips with an idea and then use." The problem I see with CiC and ChemCon is that in order for the student to understand the solution to a problem, they need also to know how to solve it by the methods used by a more experienced chemistry student. As an example, suppose you wanted to figure out how much carbon dioxide was formed from the combustion of propane. Given the chemical formulas of the reactants and products, here is what would be involved: 1] Write formulas of reactants and products 2] Check to see if equation is balanced as written 3] Balance the equation 4] Calculate the amount of carbon dioxide formed - (may be complicated by a limiting reagent). Now either this has to be done in advance, or the student has to develop a number of calculation skills that are not easily obtained. == Now as many of you know I have developed a software program that could allow the students to complete the above 4 operations (including determining the limiting reagent) in about a half a minute. Thus if the purpose of the calculation is to discuss the impact of carbon dioxide on global warming, you have greatly reduced the actual time spent on the calculation while giving each student the opportunity to "do" the calculation themselves. Since the basis of the set up for the calculation is also shown, the students are also introduced to the method by which the result was obtained. You can anticipate seeing this in a hand-held form by the end of the year. For those students who need to develop their paper-and-pencil skills, the software includes a Personal Tutor linked directly to the problem. I am now exploring a relationship with Kendall-Hunt to link the ChemCon problems. ==== For those who are familiar with my interactions with this group, I trust you will not consider this as a commercial plug. In any event, I will try to keep my future references to a minimum. === For those who want to learn more please send me a personal message at c3@BizServe.com , or see my web site at http://www.BizServe.com/c3 where you can also find an address. Thanks, Bert Ramsay, Emeritus Professor of Chemistry, Eastern Michigan University - and still struggling entrepreneur. [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:34:34 -0600 From: Gabriela Weaver Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context Richard Pendarvis wrote: > I would agree that Chemistry in Context is a good idea and even a > good first effort. However, data from a publishers survey not too > long ago indicate that it has the lowest satisfaction rate of any text > for non-majors chemistry. We found that our students had > difficulty following it in our non-majors course. Tom O'Haver Responded: > > That is disturbing news. Have other participants used the Chemistry > in Context text? Opinions? I have not taught a non-majors course using CiC. However, I personally like the book very much and used it extensively as a supplement in my majors General Chemistry course. I used many examples from that book to help point out the real applications and issues involved with the topics I was teaching out of our regular textbook. I think that if I were to use this text in our non-majors course, I would find myself supplementing from a standard textbook to fill in some of the theory and details where necessary. The truth is, I have never found ONE book that is perfect for teaching ANY course. But this book is a wonderful resource. Richard Pendarvis also wrote: > > Expanding the scope of non-majors chemistry is important. In many if > not most schools, students who are not science majors can satisfy > their physical science requirements in a variety of ways > (geology, non-majors physics, astronomy, "physical science" etc.) > This means that a lot of future elementary teachers if not most > educated people will graduate without learning any chemistry except > for the tiny bit covered in those courses or biology survey courses. > In short, most "chemistry" is now being taught by people who may not ********************************************************************** > know a lot of chemistry. ************************** > I am very intersted in this issue of teachers not really *knowing* the science they are teaching. I have done quite a bit of work with both in-service and pre-service teachers and have found myself thinking similar thoughts. But my question is: is this really different "now" than it was at some point in the past? Did teachers of middle- and high-school science have to know more of their science in the past than they do now? If anyone has thoughts on this, I would be very interested to hear them? Gabriela Weaver Assistant Professor University of Colorado at Denver Chemistry Department Campus Box 194 P. O. Box 173364 Denver, CO 80217-3364 Phone: (303) 556-3201 Fax: (303) 556-4776 [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:26:46 -0600 From: John Hogg Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context I feel much the "problem" with Chemistry in Context is not a problem with the text but a problem that is brought about by what the professor feels is the goal of such a class. Certainly, if the goal of such a non-science majors class is to teach people to balance equations and do numerical calculations then Chemistry in Context is problematic. However, I strongly believe that this should not be the goal of such a class and believe that Chemistry in Context is an excellent book. I have used it every semester since it became available in a course called Molecular Science for Citizens at Texas A&M University. The class section size ranges from about 125 to 325 depending on the semester so I have used this text with well over 1000 students and have NEVER had a single negative complaint from a student about the text. I feel very strongly that the complaints about Chemistry in Context may be due to the difficulty some people have in moving away from the format of a "traditional" general chemistry class to one appropriate for non-majors. I experienced less of this that I might have because I've never taught general chemistry. I traditionally teach organic chemistry for majors and non-majors. While I do not think Chemistry in Context is perfect, I find it far superior for the type of course I teach than the other texts which are more focused on balancing equations, etc. I think it is more important for students in the class to understand why equations have to be balanced than it is to actually do it themselves. Any balancing or numerical calculations I require on exams are fundamental "simple" examples which illustrate the concept. Although I can teach people to estimate pH very closely given the acid or base concentration, I do not think this is a major goal since hardly any (if any) of the students in such a course will ever need to do so. I have also found that many of our very best senior chemistry majors choose to take the Chemistry in Context course as a free elective (not a chemistry elective) because they hear so many positive things about the course. Their general comment is, "Why don't we learn any of this interesting stuff in our other chemistry courses?" In essence, analyze what skills/knowledge you think it is important to impart to the students and then choose a text that helps you do that. Chemistry in Context works very well for me. John Hogg At 09:18 AM 1/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, to2 wrote: > >> > However, data from a publishers survey not too long ago indicate >> >that [Chemistry in Context] has the lowest satisfaction rate of any >> >text for non-majors chemistry. We found that our students had >> >difficulty following it in our non-majors course. >> >> That is disturbing news. Have other participants used the >> Chemistry in Context text? Opinions? I also considered using >> Snyder's "Extraordinary Chemistry..." which is more conventionally >> organized and contains TONS of interesting chemistry information. >> But I went with CiC because I thought its issue-oriented structure >> would be better suited to future middle-school teachers, considering >> the integrated-science orientation of most middle-school science >> curricula. > >We like "Extraordinary Chemistry of Ordinary Things" for the reasons you >outlined as well as overall readability. > >/* Richard */ > >#include > - - ____ > | | _ | | Organic Chemistry > / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming > / \ | | / \ || Pizza > / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek > (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >| Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | >| Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | >| Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:47:34 -0700 From: gary mort Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context I reviewed Chemistry in Context for 2cnd Ed. Conceptually I like the book very much. It is not well executed. The place where it makes its biggest mistakes are (IMO): It assumes the population it addresses is scientifically literate in a general sense. It assumes the population it addresses has good logical reasoning skills. Neither of these things are true of the average student I have seen in that class either at the university or the community. Despite assurances that the problem with people that don't like the book mostly don't because they are looking for more traditional approach I do not believe that is the case for me. I had to do too much backing and filling on basics (things that could be put in print) to have fun exploring the great concepts/topics that the book introduces. g [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:00:21 -0500 From: "Richard O. Pendarvis" Subject: Re: ROP - GW- ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Gabriela Weaver wrote: > Richard Pendarvis also wrote: > > > > Expanding the scope of non-majors chemistry is important. In many if > > not most schools, students who are not science majors can satisfy > > their physical science requirements in a variety of ways > > (geology, non-majors physics, astronomy, "physical science" etc.) > > This means that a lot of future elementary teachers if not most > > educated people will graduate without learning any chemistry except > > for the tiny bit covered in those courses or biology survey courses. > > In short, most "chemistry" is now being taught by people who may not > ********************************************************************** > > know a lot of chemistry. > ************************** > > > > I am very intersted in this issue of teachers not really *knowing* the science > they are teaching. I have done quite a bit of work with both in-service and > pre-service teachers and have found myself thinking similar thoughts. But my > question is: is this really different "now" than it was at some point in the > past? Did teachers of middle- and high-school science have to know more of > their science in the past than they do now? If anyone has thoughts on this, I > would be very interested to hear them? > The question of %change is interesting. I know that what may count toward graduation requirements has broadened somewhat at our school. For example, Oceanography counts as either physical or biological science. The question of people teaching about things they know little about is a bit scarey. I get a lot of students with serious misconceptions based upon things that they have studied in the TEXTBOOKS of other areas purporting to teach some chemistry. If any of these misconceptions are carried further into teaching others, they would be expected to grow. I read somewhere that once something is learned wrong, 5 exposures is often required to learn it correctly. With an education system which is often marginal, this has to cause problems. /* Richard */ #include - - ____ | | _ | | Organic Chemistry / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming / \ | | / \ || Pizza / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:15:49 -0700 From: Scott Donnelly Subject: Chemistry in Context.... Greetings all.... If this is a duplicate message then please forgive me for cluttering up your email. Chemistry in Context offers an excellent example as to what we are trying to achieve when teaching a chemistry course for non-majors. Should we teach science appreciation, science literacy, or a combination of the two (but not necessarily a 50% split)? It's a tough call since each appeals oftentimes to different instructional methodologies and objectives. The answer...I don't know. What I do know is that I now have students scrutinizing food labels and knowing why nitrates, nitrites, and other chemicals are used in various foodstuffs. It's fun to watch. Scott Donnelly Scott Donnelly Email: aw_donnelly@awc.cc.az.us Professor of Chemistry Phone: 520 344 7590 Arizona Western College Webpage: http://www.awc.cc.az.us/chem/ Yuma, AZ 85366 "In education it is not enough to be aware that other people may try to fool you;it is more important to be aware of your own tendency to fool yourself." -Paul G. Hewitt [ Part 12: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:38:54 -0500 From: Tim Champion Subject: Re: ROP: paper #1: Chemistry in Context [ Part 13: "Included Message" ] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:09:18 -0800 From: Maureen Scharberg Subject: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context If I did not teach intro chemistry for everyone including both science and non-science majors, I would use CiC without a doubt. Remember, students' satisfaction of a text is often dependent upon how the instructor uses it in his/her curriculum. I am currently using the 8th edition of Hill and Kolb's "Chemistry for Changing Times". This text is OK--students seem to like it, but I was a little disappointed with it. I probably will consider Carl Synder's text next time. Maureen Scharberg Department of Chemistry San Jose State University Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 06:52:19 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 1 - DR: Textbooks for a Non-Majors Course Richard Pendarvis (1-19-98 21:59:58) stated that data from a publishers' survey indicated that data "Chemistry in Context" had the lowest satisfaction rate of any text for a non-majors chemistry course. 1. I'd be interested to know which textbooks had the highest satisfaction rate. Can anyone provide this information? 2. It seems to me that the success of any course depends upon the textbook, the students but above all upon the teacher. A good teacher can make almost any subject interesting and a poor teacher can make any course boring. Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:07:52 -0500 From: Allan Hovland Subject: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context Finding an appropriate text for the non-science majors COURSE HAS frustrated many of us in the chemistry department for many years. We used all the available texts and were never quite satisfied until CiC came out. Since then, we've used it continuously through both editions . It is not without shortcomings as has been noted in previous posts. Regarding the scientific literacy issue one of my colleagues tried an experiment last semester that was fairly successful. She used Sagan's Demon Haunted World as a supplemental text. It stimulated lots of in-class discussion and seemed to be well-received by the students. In reference to the issue of fostering misconceptions, this course has no corner on the misconceptions market. As many articles in J Chem Ed and other sci ed journals have noted, the science major courses make their own contributions to the propagation of misconceptions. [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:58:41 -0600 From: Barry Miburo Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 19 Jan 1998 to 20 Jan 1998 Based on the interventions I have read so far, I think it is safe to say that chemistry in context has made a great impact on students as far as the "context" is concerned. That is a very important result as it influences lifetime learning. CiC still has some defects on the "chemistry" side that it can improve upon. That can be and I am sure it will be done as a result of continous improvement from one edition to the next. One thing I disagree with John Hogg is when he says that knowing that an equation must be balanced is more important than knowing how to balance it. In all aspects of professional life (not just chemistry), competence is judged by a person's ability to solve problems, not just the awareness of the need to solve problems. Someone is gonna have to solve the problem, and the best candidate is the student who noticed it. Solving problems in chemistry should be understood as a component of the whole problem-solving education a student goes through while in school. Barry Miburo Motlow college Tullahoma, TN > Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:26:46 -0600 > From: John Hogg > I think it is more important for > students in the class to understand why equations have to be balanced than > it is to actually do it themselves. > John Hogg > [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:21:57 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 19 Jan 1998 to 20 Jan 1998 [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Barry Milburo says: > One thing I disagree with John Hogg is when he says that knowing that an > equation must be balanced is more important than knowing how to balance. === The problem is that it is just as difficult for the beginning non-science students to learn how to do this as the science majors. So you spend an excessive amount of time learning the problem solving methodogy instead of concentrating on conceptual understanding. The solution to this is to provide a calculating tool that allows them to quickly accomplish the task while demonstrating how it is done. Those students (science majors) who need to develop a basic (paper-and-pencil) proficiency and understanding can do so later if required. These tools are now available as I, and David Brooks in his paper coming up, have already pointed out. Bert Ramsay [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:41:20 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] A couple of comments on previous statements: -------------------------- >From: Allan Hovland: > >Regarding the scientific literacy issue one of my colleagues tried an experiment >last semester that was fairly successful. She used Sagan's Demon Haunted >World as a supplemental text. It stimulated lots of in-class discussion and seemed >to be well-received by the students. --------------------------------------- I couldn't agree more with this idea. I think that using bad/controversial science as a learning tool is even more appropriate in non-science courses than it is (as the paper last summer described) in science major courses. --------------------------------------------------------------- >From: Barry Miburo > >One thing I disagree with John Hogg is when he says that knowing that an >equation must be balanced is more important than knowing how to balance >it. In all aspects of professional life (not just chemistry), competence >is judged by a person's ability to solve problems, not just the >awareness of the need to solve problems. Someone is gonna have to solve >the problem, and the best candidate is the student who noticed it. --------------------------------------------------------------- I think the point is that 10 years down the road very few students will remember how to balance an equation, but they will remember that an equation must be balanced BECAUSE they spent a great deal of blood, sweat and tears learning to balance the equation. But the important point still remains that the equation must be balanced, and because of that knowledge, the student will (again 10 years down the road) either locate the balanced equation in the literature or relearn how to balance it. ME ================================================== Mike Epstein Research Chemist, NIST, Gaithersburg, Maryland [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Mike_S_Epstein@msn.com Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html Check out our new Spectrochemical Methods Group Page at NIST: http://www.cstl.nist.gov/nist839/839.01/spectro.htm "Standardization is a euphemism for monopoly" ... Ralph Nader at the Appraising Microsoft Conference, Nov 13-14, 1997 [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:25:44 -0500 From: Tim Champion Subject: TC-Paper#1-Response to Ramsey [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:43:14 EET From: Irma A Varjola Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context One comment on previous statements --------------------------------------- > From: Mike Epstein > --------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: Barry Miburo > > > >One thing I disagree with John Hogg is when he says that knowing that an > >equation must be balanced is more important than knowing how to balance > >it. In all aspects of professional life (not just chemistry), competence > >is judged by a person's ability to solve problems, not just the > >awareness of the need to solve problems. Someone is gonna have to solve > >the problem, and the best candidate is the student who noticed it. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think the point is that 10 years down the road very few students will > remember how to balance an equation, but they will remember that an equation > must be balanced BECAUSE they spent a great deal of blood, sweat and tears > learning to balance the equation. But the important point still remains > that the equation must be balanced, and because of that knowledge, the > student will (again 10 years down the road) either locate the balanced > equation in the literature or relearn how to balance it. > How about the students at the university level? Do they understand why? What kind of misconceptions do they have? Irma Varjola Department of Chemistry University of Helsinki, Finland [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:01:30 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Mike Epstein is of the opinion: > I think the point is that 10 years down the road very few students will > remember how to balance an equation, but they will remember that an equation > must be balanced BECAUSE they spent a great deal of blood, sweat and tears > learning to balance the equation. But the important point still remains > that the equation must be balanced, and because of that knowledge, the > student will (again 10 years down the road) either locate the balanced > equation in the literature or relearn how to balance it. Question: Are you suggesting that they will only understand why an equation should be balanced only if "... they spent a great deal of blood, sweat and tears learning to balance the equation?" Presumably with paper and pencil? Does this apply to the non-science majors? Bert Ramsay [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:04:57 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: TC-Paper#1-Response to Ramsey [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Am I missing something? There was no response included in the message sent by Tim Champion. Bert Ramsay ---------- > From: Tim Champion > To: CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU > Subject: TC-Paper#1-Response to Ramsey > Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 1:25 PM > [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:46:14 CST From: "James A. Carroll" Subject: Paper 1 JAC: Expectations of non-majors students Reading the postings about equation balancing, it occurred to me that the expectations of the chemistry faculty here are inconsistent with the policies of the College of Arts and Sciences. Chemists demand that all our courses be "algebra based." In practice this implies that students must be expected to solve some problems reasonably classified as hard science. We won't give credit for appreciation of a balanced equation unless the student balanced it. I assume this is consistent with many schools. The College permits its students to use an art appreciation course toward satisfaction of its humanities requirement, but not an art course. The College won't give credit for a fine piece of pottery unless the student has NOT made it. This presents a problem for text and course developers. From their experiences in other distribution courses, non-majors expect to get a science appreciation course; we've never seen a science appreciation course we'd approve. Texts must include enough science to be acceptable to us (including Chemistry in Context), but such science skills aren't the core objectives of a non-majors course. I had never recognized the inconsistency. Jim Carroll Phone (402) 554-3639 University of Nebraska at Omaha Dept (402) 554-2651 Department of Chemistry FAX (402) 554-3888 6001 Dodge St. Omaha, NE 68182-0109 jcarroll@unomaha.edu [ Part 12: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:46:39 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: ME response to BR: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] No, I am suggesting that they will be more likely to remember something if they expend some effort in accomplishing it. Certainly they will understand why an equation should be balanced without going through the effort. I think the thrust of the "problem-solving" approach to learning has been to use that concept to improve understanding and retention and it does require more effort than listening to a lecture. Presumably with paper and pencil? This is an interesting point. Will they learn more by balancing an equation using paper and pencil or with a computer program that does some of the work for them? Depends on how well the computer program is written and whether it still requires some effort on the part of the students. > Are you suggesting that they will only understand why an equation should >be balanced only if "... they spent a great deal of blood, sweat and tears >learning to balance the equation?" Presumably with paper and pencil? Does >this apply to the non-science majors? > Bert Ramsay [ Part 13: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:44:57 -0500 From: Bert Ramsay Subject: Re: ME response to BR: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Mike asks: > Presumably with paper and pencil? This is an interesting point. Will they > learn more by balancing an equation using paper and pencil or with a > computer program that does some of the work for them? Depends on how well > the computer program is written and whether it still requires some effort on > the part of the students. ====== You are welcome to look at my program (at the web site given earlier) to see how well it is written. But the more important issue is whether learning only comes with "...some effort on the part of the students." What kind of "effort" is needed? Remember the arguments against the use of calculators when they were first introduced? This discussion anticipates many of the points raised by David Brooks in paper #3, and to some extent in paper #2. Perhaps we should pursue this then. ====== James Carroll perhaps gets to the core of the problem by pointing out the inconsistency of our expectations for "algebra based" proficiency of non-science majors compared to science majors. ===== Bert Ramsay [ Part 14: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:07:09 -0600 From: John Hogg Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Digest - 19 Jan 1998 to 20 Jan 1998 Barry Miburo writes the following in response to my earlier posting. One thing I disagree with John Hogg is when he says that knowing that an >equation must be balanced is more important than knowing how to balance >it. In all aspects of professional life (not just chemistry), competence >is judged by a person's ability to solve problems, not just the >awareness of the need to solve problems. Someone is gonna have to solve >the problem, and the best candidate is the student who noticed it. >Solving problems in chemistry should be understood as a component of the >whole problem-solving education a student goes through while in school. > My response is that I agree if we are talking about students who will be involved in professions where the ability to solve this particular type of problem is important but I do not think that necessarily applies to many of the people who take a non-science majors course. I know problem solving skills are very important but different types of skills are important for different types of problems and situations. I do not believe that teaching someone to balance redox reactions will help them if they turn out to be a lawyer, businessman, etc. If they need to know this skill they will hire or consult an expert. After all, we've all taken many different chemistry courses and, I believe, worked many, many problems in organic synthesis, mechanisms, etc. but the "non-organic" chemist will, for the most part, still consult an "expert" for something really critical. The fact that we worked all of those problems does not give us a capacity to, forevermore, solve problems of that type. I guess I can only speak for myself, but just because I worked lots of physical chemistry problems in undergraduate and graduate school does not mean I feel competent to have a p-chem final thrust before me at this point in my life nor, in my opinion, should I have that as a goal. However, I do understand the necessity for abiding by certain thermodynamic laws and fundamental physical principles. I base my comments on experience and profess no special knowledge of learning theory or base my comments on any formal training in "how to teach" or "how we learn." John Hogg At 09:58 AM 1/21/98 -0600, you wrote: >Based on the interventions I have read so far, I think it is safe to say >that chemistry in context has made a great impact on students as far as >the "context" is concerned. That is a very important result as it >influences lifetime learning. CiC still has some defects on the >"chemistry" side that it can improve upon. That can be and I am sure it >will be done as a result of continous improvement from one edition to >the next. > >One thing I disagree with John Hogg is when he says that knowing that an >equation must be balanced is more important than knowing how to balance >it. In all aspects of professional life (not just chemistry), competence >is judged by a person's ability to solve problems, not just the >awareness of the need to solve problems. Someone is gonna have to solve >the problem, and the best candidate is the student who noticed it. >Solving problems in chemistry should be understood as a component of the >whole problem-solving education a student goes through while in school. > >Barry Miburo >Motlow college >Tullahoma, TN > > > >> Subject: Re: ROP Re: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context >> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:26:46 -0600 >> From: John Hogg >> > I think it is more important for >> students in the class to understand why equations have to be balanced than >> it is to actually do it themselves. > >> John Hogg >> > [ Part 15: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:58:32 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: Additional ME reply to BR Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Re: Balancing equations > Does this apply to the non-science majors? > Bert Ramsay > Sorry, I forget to respond to this question. I see your point and agree that for non-science majors that you can "spend an excessive amount of time learning the problem solving methodogy instead of concentrating on conceptual understanding." The question then becomes whether learning to balance equations manually is a worthwhile use of time both in terms of learning a concept AND solving a problem relative to other concepts and problems within the course structure. I suppose that is up to the individual instructor. However, I believe that the question becomes much broader. Is the purpose of chemistry for non-science majors to teach facts (i.e., equations must be balanced) or to teach critical thinking and problem-solving skills using chemical phenomena? What and how much will be retained by the non-science major after 4 years of college? If one believes that the purpose of an education is not only to teach facts and concepts but to also teach thinking/learning skills and to perhaps inspire some to a greater interest in ( and therefore understanding of ) chemistry, then perhaps the effort in solving a few difficult problems may be more worthwhile than a barrage of facts and concepts that will not be retained. ME ================================================== Mike Epstein Research Chemist, NIST, Gaithersburg, Maryland [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Mike_S_Epstein@msn.com Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html Check out our new Spectrochemical Methods Group Page at NIST: http://www.cstl.nist.gov/nist839/839.01/spectro.htm "Standardization is a euphemism for monopoly" ... Ralph Nader at the Appraising Microsoft Conference, Nov 13-14, 1997 [ Part 16: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:24:23 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: ME response to BR: Paper 1 - Chemistry in Context [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "ISO-LATIN" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] > But the more important issue is whether learning only comes with >"...some effort on the part of the students." What kind of "effort" is >needed? Remember the arguments against the use of calculators when they >were first introduced? I guess by "effort" I mean that there has to be an understanding of the process leading to the answer, which requires some learning and problem-solving to achieve. The computer program has to be more than just a substitute for a lecture but be a true "programmed-learning" approach with appropriate feedback and reinforcement, etc. (Sorry, I haven't yet looked at your paper yet. I'm taking these papers one step at a time ... I look forward to reading it) . Anyway, I think that the argument against calculators was phony because understanding the mathematical processes was not critical to their proper use. The basics of math are taught in grade school (i.e., certainly my kids are learning multiplication tables the hard way). On the other hand, developing a program that simplifies a mathematical operation dealing with a chemical process (such as balancing equations) becomes a more difficult task when the chemical process must be understood as well. One thing I like about programs like Mathcad for education is that the mathematical concepts and relationships are not hidden as they are in spreadsheets. If you want to do statistical calculations, you see the process by which the statistics are generated as well as the resulting statistics. I think the same should apply to chemical processes ... if it is important to understand the processes of course. ================================================== Mike Epstein Research Chemist, NIST, Gaithersburg, Maryland [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Mike_S_Epstein@msn.com Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html Check out our new Spectrochemical Methods Group Page at NIST: http://www.cstl.nist.gov/nist839/839.01/spectro.htm "Standardization is a euphemism for monopoly" ... Ralph Nader at the Appraising Microsoft Conference, Nov 13-14, 1997 [ Part 17: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:04:24 -0600 From: Gabriela Weaver Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 >John Hogg wrote: > I do not believe that teaching > someone to balance redox reactions will help them if they turn out to be > a lawyer, businessman, etc. This issue will come up again during the discussion of paper #2. However, I think that the argument that someone will not use a specific skill in their career gets used too loosely in order to dismiss the teaching of some basic skills and manipulations. I firmly believe that my students will forget many of the details that they learn in my class. However, I want them to remember the *concepts*, the *underlying principles* and the *big picture*. To get to these, sometimes the skills need to be learned and used. Balancing equations is a good example of a skill that allows a student to build up an intuition regarding the conservation of mass. And the conservation of mass concept is something that I DO want them to remember. *Even* if they are a lawyer - in fact, *especially* if they are a lawyer. Gabriela Weaver Assistant Professor University of Colorado at Denver Chemistry Department Campus Box 194 P. O. Box 173364 Denver, CO 80217-3364 Phone: (303) 556-3201 Fax: (303) 556-4776 [ Part 18: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:06:18 -0800 From: Bob Bruner Subject: Chem in Context etc -- more comments encouraged I would just like to second the idea that people offer their comments on and (particularly) experiences with so-called non-majors books, such as CiC. Many of us deal with this issue, and with the related question of whether we even should teach different chem to majors and non-majors at the intro level. The comments posted already have been helpful. I would hope that others will also contribute. Comments on Snyder, Extraordinary Chem... ("TECOT") would be particularly welcomed, as well as on other books that we know less about. My impression, based on 'casual inspection', is that CiC reads as if it were written by a committee trying to fulfill an agenda. In contrast, TECOT reads like one person telling a story that he has worked out. As I read several of the comments on CiC, I get the sense that CiC works best with students who already know chemistry. This comes through in several msgs, explicitly or implicitly. Should we face this as a truth (and challenge)??? (If this discussion gets out in hand in the intended context, perhaps the organizers can make this a topic for some other time.) Bob Bruner Contra Costa College, San Pablo, CA and UC Berkeley Extension [ Part 19: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:33:31 -0700 From: Scott Donnelly Subject: Paper 1 I'm sure glad somebody taught me basic trig in order for me to do my carpentry work at home. I'm equally glad that I have a concept of what a house is. I can either add or delete various perimeter features when I build another. But I hope I use a mortise rather than a miter joint when joining studs at right angles in the framework, that part of the house where misconceptions or miscalculations have greater negative consequences than the perimeter. Scott Donnelly Email: aw_donnelly@awc.cc.az.us Professor of Chemistry Phone: 520 344 7590 Arizona Western College Webpage: http://www.awc.cc.az.us/chem/ Yuma, AZ 85366 "In education it is not enough to be aware that other people may try to fool you;it is more important to be aware of your own tendency to fool yourself." -Paul G. Hewitt [ Part 20: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:00:55 -0600 From: sc18 Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 Gabriela Weaver wrote: > >John Hogg wrote: > > I do not believe that teaching > > someone to balance redox reactions will help them if they turn out to be > > a lawyer, businessman, etc. > > This issue will come up again during the discussion of paper #2. However, I > think that the argument that someone will not use a specific skill in their > career gets used too loosely in order to dismiss the teaching of some basic > skills and manipulations. I firmly believe that my students will forget many > of the details that they learn in my class. However, I want them to remember > the *concepts*, the *underlying principles* and the *big picture*. To get to > these, sometimes the skills need to be learned and used. Balancing equations > is a good example of a skill that allows a student to build up an intuition > regarding the conservation of mass. And the conservation of mass concept is > something that I DO want them to remember. *Even* if they are a lawyer - in > fact, *especially* if they are a lawyer. > > Gabriela Weaver > Assistant Professor > > University of Colorado at Denver > Chemistry Department > Campus Box 194 > P. O. Box 173364 > Denver, CO 80217-3364 > > Phone: (303) 556-3201 > Fax: (303) 556-4776 Hi All, I think this response is important so here's my $0.02 worth. The process described here is related to the re-representation problem. Many students search for algorithms because they embody most of the mobilization of what is already known about a problem. These students do not re-represent the problem in terms of what they already know (expert behavior) to achieve a congruancey, or a connection between what they know and some aspect of the problem. Experts, having done this, choose a pathway or pathways to pursue, all the while keeping their tacit knowledge busy checking the pathway for fruitfulness. When a pathway appears to not be fruitful, they return to what they know and reorganize this "prevenient knowledge" to suggest another pathway. This behavior is what students lack, and it can be taught. Many of my organic studetns begin their classroom careers attempting to solve synthesis problems from condensed formulae. They must be taught to draw everything out and find out what makes the problem a problem. Sourses for this outburst of mine are Reif, J.Chem. Ed., circa 1982 or 3 and Polanyi's books on Learning and Being. Conversations with Joe Novak and his former student "Kip" Charles Ault stimulated my interest in the re-representation problem, much to my benefit. Sincerely, Ken Fountain [ Part 21: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:01:30 -0800 From: Bob Bruner Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 -- balancing equations At 07:04 PM 1/21/98 -0600, Gabriela Weaver wrote: >>John Hogg wrote: >> I do not believe that teaching >> someone to balance redox reactions will help them if they turn out to be >> a lawyer, businessman, etc. > >This issue will come up again during the discussion of paper #2. However, I >think that the argument that someone will not use a specific skill in their >career gets used too loosely in order to dismiss the teaching of some basic >skills and manipulations. I firmly believe that my students will forget many >of the details that they learn in my class. However, I want them to remember >the *concepts*, the *underlying principles* and the *big picture*. To get to >these, sometimes the skills need to be learned and used. Balancing equations >is a good example of a skill that allows a student to build up an intuition >regarding the conservation of mass. And the conservation of mass concept is >something that I DO want them to remember. *Even* if they are a lawyer - in >fact, *especially* if they are a lawyer. This is a fascinating discussion. A couple of brief comments... When we talk of whether students "can" balance eqns, we need to make a distinction between simple and complex eqns. I find that nearly all students in intro and HS chem can balance an equation at the level of: Na + Cl2 --> NaCl. Further, they can 'explain' what they did: talk about the number of atoms of each element on each side, or maybe even show that with a little picture. The problem is that as the eqns get more complex, some students have trouble keeping track of all the pieces of the puzzle. I think it is important to understand the concept of a balanced eqn, and they should be able to balance simple eqns. But I see little benefit of pushing non-chemists to do ones that add little more than complexity, no new basic concepts. An analogy from outside chemistry. I am not very good at dealing with differential equations. (I wasn't very good way back then.) Yet I appreciate their usefulness. I am not intimidated by seeing them, and can even frame a problem in terms of a differential equation. Maybe I can solve it. More likely I will need to seek help. But i still know the value. Bob Bruner Contra Costa College, San Pablo, CA and UC Berkeley Extension [ Part 22: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:26:25 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Nonscience majors text & course Here at BCC we teach two or three nonscience majors classes every quarter. Each class typically has about 40 students. We have had excellent experiences with The World of Chemistry. We have used different editions of The World of Chemistry by Joesten, Wood, Castellion and since 1991 We broadcast the series of World of Chemistry video programs on our cable channel. . Our experience has been very good. Students who go through our one quarter class have a better over view of chemistry than many science majors coming through the general chem series. The concern over people not having learned how to balance equations raises a question about the point and purpose of the nonscience course. I believe it IS NOT supposed to be a cut down version of the majors course. The students have entirely different goals. In my opinion the course should be organized to expand the number of students who are chemistry literate. This does not mean that they need to be able to do a great deal of math. One chemistry class is not going to remedy all the problems students have with calculations. They should not be side tracked into thinking that calculations are the most important aspect of chemistry. This is particularly true for people who don't even know the difference between melting, burning, and boiling. They need to know that chemistry is linked to their well being and processes that occur around them every moment of their life. Dr. Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue WA 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/101-140homepage.html Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:05:16 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 -- balancing equations Hello out there, I'm very interested in the discussion about people's expectations for nonscience chemistry students. I've been teaching chemistry for more years than I care to count. One problem I have seen over and over again is that students in almost all levels of college chemistry look at chemistry as a topic that has academic value, but does not really impact their daily life. In recent years I've worked hard to emphasize the connections between course content and daily life. Numerical work alone without any discussion of the significance of the results is wasted effort. Almost all of our students can be "trained" to balance equations. The basic concept has to be worked through by students. They don't have to be able to balance every variety of reaction to get the message. I agree with Bob Bruner. Likewise they can learn algorithms to solve problems, but they may be clueless about what the results mean. The real issue is, what do the balanced equations or any other numerical result have to do with long term personal and global issues. > Dr. Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue WA 98007 > 425-641-2467 > wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu > http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/101-140homepage.html > > > > ---------- > > This is a fascinating discussion. A couple of brief comments... > > When we talk of whether students "can" balance eqns, we need to make a > distinction between simple and complex eqns. > > I find that nearly all students in intro and HS chem can balance an > equation > at the level of: Na + Cl2 --> NaCl. Further, they can 'explain' what > they > did: talk about the number of atoms of each element on each side, or > maybe > even show that with a little picture. The problem is that as the eqns > get > more complex, some students have trouble keeping track of all the > pieces of > the puzzle. > > I think it is important to understand the concept of a balanced eqn, > and > they should be able to balance simple eqns. But I see little benefit > of > pushing non-chemists to do ones that add little more than complexity, > no new > basic concepts. > > > An analogy from outside chemistry. I am not very good at dealing with > differential equations. (I wasn't very good way back then.) Yet I > appreciate > their usefulness. I am not intimidated by seeing them, and can even > frame a > problem in terms of a differential equation. Maybe I can solve it. > More > likely I will need to seek help. But i still know the value. > > > Bob Bruner > Contra Costa College, San Pablo, CA > and UC Berkeley Extension > [ Part 3: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:12:50 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 Hello again, I suspect we all agree that nonscience students need to get experience balancing equations and doing some exercises with chemicals so that the conservation laws are real to them. Hopefully the only problem is the expected level of complexity. Dr. Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue WA 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/101-140homepage.html > ---------- > From: Gabriela Weaver > Reply To: Conferences on Chemistry Research and Education > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 6:04 PM > To: CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU > Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 > > >John Hogg wrote: > > I do not believe that teaching > > someone to balance redox reactions will help them if they turn out > to be > > a lawyer, businessman, etc. > > This issue will come up again during the discussion of paper #2. > However, I > think that the argument that someone will not use a specific skill in > their > career gets used too loosely in order to dismiss the teaching of some > basic > skills and manipulations. I firmly believe that my students will > forget many > of the details that they learn in my class. However, I want them to > remember > the *concepts*, the *underlying principles* and the *big picture*. To > get to > these, sometimes the skills need to be learned and used. Balancing > equations > is a good example of a skill that allows a student to build up an > intuition > regarding the conservation of mass. And the conservation of mass > concept is > something that I DO want them to remember. *Even* if they are a > lawyer - in > fact, *especially* if they are a lawyer. > > > > Gabriela Weaver > Assistant Professor > > University of Colorado at Denver > Chemistry Department > Campus Box 194 > P. O. Box 173364 > Denver, CO 80217-3364 > > Phone: (303) 556-3201 > Fax: (303) 556-4776 > [ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:27:43 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: TC-Paper#1-Response to Ramsey Hello, I agree with Tim about the "black box" method of solving problems. People need to personally do some of the work to get a sense of what is going on. I' concerned that he balancing equations idea is in itself a kind of black box. The exercise with paper and pencil or computer simulation are both abstractions. The true experience is tied to physically measuring amounts and observing what happens. I believe that if a student can do a limiting reagents problem on paper, but doesn't realize that there are finite limits on our resources he really didn't get the message about conservation laws. Dr. Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue WA 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/101-140homepage.html > ---------- > From: Tim Champion > Reply To: Conferences on Chemistry Research and Education > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 11:25 AM > To: CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU > Subject: TC-Paper#1-Response to Ramsey > > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not > understand > this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. > > ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD2670.1411B7A0 > Content-Type: text/plain > > Bert Ramsey wrote: > > So you spend an > > excessive amount of time learning the problem solving methodogy > instead of > > concentrating on conceptual understanding. > > The solution to this is to provide a calculating tool that allows > them to > > quickly accomplish the task while demonstrating how it is done. > > This sounds promising but I fear that a calculating tool can become a > little-understood magic box (e.g. we've all seen students use a > calculator to multiply by 10, etc.). > > I haven't seen Ramsey's or Brook's efforts, so I'm not judging those > by > any means; this is just my bias that I would take into an evaluation > of > this sort of tool. > > -Tim > > Dr. Tim Champion > Department of Natural Sciences (Chemistry) > Johnson C. Smith University > 100 Beatties Ford Road > Charlotte, NC 28216 > (704) 378-1155 (work) 378-1050 (fax) 542-7543 (home) > tchampion@jcsu.edu > > ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD2670.1411B7A0 > Content-Type: text/html > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > charset=3Dus-ascii"> > 5.0.1458.49"> > > > >

Bert Ramsey wrote: >
> So you spend an >
> excessive amount of time = > learning the problem solving methodogy instead of >
> concentrating on conceptual = > understanding. >
>  The solution to this is > to = > provide a calculating tool that allows them to >
> quickly accomplish the task = > while demonstrating how it is done. >
>
This sounds promising but I fear > that = > a calculating tool can become a little-understood magic box (e.g. > we've = > all seen students use a calculator to multiply by 10, = > etc.). 

>
>

I haven't seen Ramsey's or Brook's = > efforts, so I'm not judging those by any means; this is just my bias = > that I would take into an evaluation of this sort of tool.

>
>

-Tim >
  >
Dr. Tim = > Champion >
Department of Natural = > Sciences (Chemistry) >
Johnson C. Smith = > University >
100 Beatties Ford = > Road >
Charlotte, NC = > 28216 >
(704) 378-1155 (work) = > 378-1050 (fax) 542-7543 (home) >
Serif">tchampion@jcsu.edu >

> > > > ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD2670.1411B7A0-- > [ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:23:16 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 1 - DR: Chemistry and Science Understanding by Adults To: Sylvia Ware One precept of the Division's mission statement is: "To enhance the public understanding of chemistry" In your article you mention "science and technology literacy for all", ". . relevance of chemistry to their lives, prepare them to become future decision-makers on a variety of societal issues involving chemistry . ." Most of the programs described attempt to prepare future adults for decision making, and science and technology literacy. What about today's adults and decision makers? Has the ACS decided it is not worthwhile or feasible to work with them? The audiotapes I mentioned in a previous question were an attempt to provide chemical and scientific information to the listening public. Apparently, the program was not successful. There have been PBS programs - I remember the series the World of Chemistry a number of years ago. Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU [ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:00:54 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 1 - Last day of discussion To: CHEMCONF Registrants From: Donald Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU Re: LAST DAY FOR DISCUSSION OF PAPER 1 It is 8 AM EST (Eastern Standard Time - 1300 GMT) on Thursday, January 22 This is the last day for discussion of Paper 1 - "FROM PRE-SCHOOL TO DEATH: Life-Long Learning and the ACS Division of Education" by Sylvia Ware Short Questions for Paper 2 may be sent in tomorrow after 8 AM EST. [ Part 7: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:39:25 -0600 From: "Dr. David Ritter" Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 IMHO the level of complexity that we choose should be determined by what concepts we are going to help our students to master. My current example is to use ozone depletion, a phenomema that is at first somewhat abstract, but has certainly touched each of our lives through international agreements and legislation. I segue to this from catalytic recycling, and to that from conservation of atoms (not just mass). In an attempt to not leave the "take home message" to chance, I take a few minutes to make these connections in class. I try to choose a set of examples to put on the board (yes, I still use chalk :-) such that we are left with a coherent story to tell before erasing and going on to another set. DRitter At 09:12 PM 1/21/98 -0800, you wrote: > >I suspect we all agree that nonscience students need to get experience >balancing equations and doing some exercises with chemicals so that the >conservation laws are real to them. Hopefully the only problem is the >expected level of complexity. > >Dr. Walt Volland >>.....However, I want them to >> remember >> the *concepts*, the *underlying principles* and the *big picture*. To >> get to >> these, sometimes the skills need to be learned and used. Balancing >> equations >> is a good example of a skill that allows a student to build up an >> intuition >> regarding the conservation of mass. And the conservation of mass >> concept is >> something that I DO want them to remember. *Even* if they are a >> lawyer - in >> fact, *especially* if they are a lawyer. >> >> >> >> Gabriela Weaver >> Assistant Professor >>..... David Ritter Department of Chemistry Southeast Missouri State University dritter@semovm.semo.edu [ Part 8: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:29:16 -0500 From: Tim Champion Subject: This is a test [ Part 9: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:27:59 -0600 From: "Gary L. Bertrand" Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 -- balancing equations I was particularly impressed by Bob Bruner's comments. I think Bob shows a very nice separation between the concept and the application. Knowing the importance of a balanced reaction and being able to check that a reaction is indeed balanced are the really important factors here. Having students balance very complicated reactions does not teach or test the knowledge of these principles any better than the very simple simple reactions as Bob suggests. On the other hand, if we are trying to teach problem-solving skills, I think that balancing complicated reactions can be an excellent exercise. The approach to the solution may range from almost purely intuitive to almost purely mechanical. Math, Chemistry, and Physics have traditionally been the courses where problem-solving skills are developed. Balancing reactions is one way to develop these skills, but I am not convinced that it is the best way for the greatest percentage of students taking general chemistry. Gary >This is a fascinating discussion. A couple of brief comments... > >When we talk of whether students "can" balance eqns, we need to make a >distinction between simple and complex eqns. > >I find that nearly all students in intro and HS chem can balance an equation >at the level of: Na + Cl2 --> NaCl. Further, they can 'explain' what they >did: talk about the number of atoms of each element on each side, or maybe >even show that with a little picture. The problem is that as the eqns get >more complex, some students have trouble keeping track of all the pieces of >the puzzle. > >I think it is important to understand the concept of a balanced eqn, and >they should be able to balance simple eqns. But I see little benefit of >pushing non-chemists to do ones that add little more than complexity, no new >basic concepts. > > >An analogy from outside chemistry. I am not very good at dealing with >differential equations. (I wasn't very good way back then.) Yet I appreciate >their usefulness. I am not intimidated by seeing them, and can even frame a >problem in terms of a differential equation. Maybe I can solve it. More >likely I will need to seek help. But i still know the value. > > >Bob Bruner >Contra Costa College, San Pablo, CA >and UC Berkeley Extension ******************************************************** Gary L. Bertrand gbert@umr.edu (573) 341-4441 Department of Chemistry FAX (573) 341-6033 University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65401. "In this house, the laws of thermodynamics will be obeyed!" Homer Simpson ******************************************************** [ Part 10: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:33:21 -0500 From: Tim Champion Subject: test 2 [ Part 11: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:44:19 -0500 From: "Richard O. Pendarvis" Subject: ROP Re: GW: Paper #1 Reading all the arguments about whether people should learn this or that topic or concept gives me the impression that there is not much agreement about what we are trying to accomplish or how to go about it. If anything is going to change, we must get our act together first. The other significant problem in science education for non-majors is the students themselves. From what I can determine from student reactions, they are apparently not accustomed to doing much in any of their classes. Their reaction to the different climate in any of our courses is predictable. Before there can be any improvement in the way non-majors science courses are taught, there must be some changes in the way other courses are taught. I am only a humble chemistry instuctor. I cannot remedy poor to non existant reading and writing skills, math anxiety, "test anxiety", lack of study skills, work ethic, or personal responsibility. /* Richard */ #include - - ____ | | _ | | Organic Chemistry / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming / \ | | / \ || Pizza / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road | | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 | | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Part 12: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:52:58 -0400 From: "Jeff C. Davis, Jr." Subject: Re: Paper 1 JAC: Expectations of non-majors students In response to Jim's comments I think that there is a difference between responding to and "understanding" a work of art or a piece of music and simply knowing that it is important that chemical equations need to be balanced. Most "appreciation" courses still involve some analysis of works and discussion of intended and actual personal responses to works of art and music. One of the aims of a science course should not be just a superficial acknowledgement of various facts and conlusions but rather an understanding of the logic behind what is done and what the consequences are. After all, some of these will change within our students' lifetimes and how are they to appreciate they seemed reasonable today and are replaced with new insights tomorrow? My experience has been that unless a student has balanced an equation and can interpret what it means, he/she has lost an opportunity to understand why we think atoms have unique identities and how we have come to know how molecules are composed from atoms, how measurement of masses of reactants and products can lead to understanding this composition, how we can use equations and masses of substances to draw useful conclusions about amounts of things involved in processes, etc. It appears to be a long step conceptually from the macroscopic to the microscopic world and back and a little handwaving doesn't help. If we are going to describe things in terms of atoms and molecules, including writing equations, and if we are going to tackle things like figuring how much carbon dioxide a tankful of gasoline produces then the students should have a handle on the fundamentals. None of this means we should beat them over the head with the math. It's bad enough that we have freshmen science and engineering majors jumping through hoops in General Chemistry that won't do them any good at all down the road. But I feel very strongly that someone can't "appreciate" science unless he/she can think a little bit like a scientist and see how some questions can be answered and how various conclusions can be compared to real-world problems. Otherwise we are giving them show-and-tell which won't change any of their prejudices or help them in any way to distinguish fact from fancy. These are the reasons I think Chemistry in Context has some shortcomings. This text recognizes that you need concrete evidence, including things that involve quantitative measurements, to examine important issues. At the same time, students are asked to use equations and calculate quantities of things without their having enough discussion of some of these ideas in the text. Working a problem by following the same algorithm as in a worked-out example is not understanding what is involved. This is a small criticism in view of the overall impact of the text but I think it has been a difficulty for students. Jeff Davis Prof. and Chair Dept. of Chemistry Univ. of South Florida James A. Carroll wrote: > Reading the postings about equation balancing, it occurred to me that > the expectations of the chemistry faculty here are inconsistent with > the policies of the College of Arts and Sciences. > > Chemists demand that all our courses be "algebra based." In practice > this implies that students must be expected to solve some problems > reasonably classified as hard science. We won't give credit > for appreciation of a balanced equation unless the student balanced > it. I assume this is consistent with many schools. > > The College permits its students to use an art appreciation course > toward satisfaction of its humanities requirement, but not an art > course. The College won't give credit for a fine piece of pottery > unless the student has NOT made it. > > This presents a problem for text and course developers. From their > experiences in other distribution courses, non-majors expect to get a > science appreciation course; we've never seen a science appreciation > course we'd approve. Texts must include enough science to be > acceptable to us (including Chemistry in Context), but such science > skills aren't the core objectives of a non-majors course. > > I had never recognized the inconsistency. > > Jim Carroll Phone (402) 554-3639 > University of Nebraska at Omaha Dept (402) 554-2651 > Department of Chemistry FAX (402) 554-3888 > 6001 Dodge St. > Omaha, NE 68182-0109 jcarroll@unomaha.edu [ Part 13: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:13:46 EST From: BillM10173 Subject: Paper 1 GWM: Continuing education throughout life I think the discussion around the teaching of non-majors has been very interesting. It seems that it is important for the academic community to settle on the goals of the this type of course, and then see how it fits into the overall goal of preparing an individual to deal with the complexities of the their world. It seems very reasonable that a text book cannot meet all the goals of the academic community when the goals are not agreed. The book then, should be evaluated by students who say whether it meets their needs and will be used as a reference. How many of us chemists use some of our old texts as reference. I still have my old qualitative analysis book and still find it useful. I tried to understand the analogies that were offered concerning the need for basic trig and algebra training to work in carpentry. I don't see the equivalent need for one who is concerned with mixing cleaning solutions for maximum effect on the kitchen floor to understanding how to complex redox equations. To me, as I prepare to clean the floor, I should realize that mixing these cleaning solutions may have unexpected results, and the I can is read the label on the bottle as guidance. The purpose of a course for non- majors is to teach me about hazards in using chemicals in my enviroment. Therefore, for me, I think the need is for a Chemistry appreciation (as it has been stated by other contributors) that would give a student an overview and the fundamental concepts that I may use to continue education throughout life. For instance, what could a layperson understand the impact of mis-handling of samples in the OJ trial, and how should the jurors have used that knowledge in their decision making process, or, as a personal example, what does "blowing a 0.1" and understanding when the measuring instrument was calibrated mean to me as a juror in a DUI case. These are important reasons for people to understand chemistry who act as jurors in our legal system. Focusing on another part of the paper, as a professional industrial chemist, I have found the ACS courses very helpful in extending my knowledge of developing feels of chemistry, acting as a contuining education system for me as a analytical chemist. I was fortunate to have a company support my desire for contuining education, including providing on-site support, courses at conferences, and even those tapes and workbooks that were mentioned (I did listen as I drove from company site to site). I am sorry to hear the tapes have been discontinued. As a lab manager, we used the available courses as part of an overall training plan to develop the new graduate into an experienced chemist who was fully competent to operate as an independent scientist. There are many ways that a basic degree program needs to be enhanced to meet industry specific requirements. These courses have provided a good source of review material, plus an opportunity to extend a scientists range of interests in chemistry, thus providing tools for their innovative look at industry problems. My concern is the cost of these educational materials. As an independent consultant, I am now faced with the cost on continuing my education on my own. The paper also pointed out that the ACS expects the courses to be self supporting. As a member of the society, I almost expect part of my dues to be used for my continued education, as well as providing me with local activities and national meetings where this education can be continued. Downsizing and other industry shifts are causing chemists to move from company to company, and from industry to industry, and there are needs for the chemist to hone their skills and develop new areas of expertise to meet the needs of this changing industry, often at their own expense. I will look for opportunities to voice my opinion on this subject within the society. I would like thank the author and the sponsors of the conference for this opportunity to continue to learn about chemistry and chemistry education. Bill Martin Independent Consultant to analytical chemists PO Box. 279 East Montpelier, VT 05651 [ Part 14: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:34:16 -0500 From: Tim Champion Subject: TC-Paper #1,etc. [ Part 15: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:44:58 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: Paper 1 - DR: Chemistry and Science Understanding by Adults Dear colleages, I believe that Don Rosenthal makes an important point about the failure of current programs. Right now there are very few adults who are attracted to basic science. The education system and programs are not communicating with this huge group of people. This breakdown perpetuates the "chemophobia" and science ignorance that is unfortunately so common place. Educating school children may succeed but what is the fate of the millions of adult baby boomers who are left out of the loop? What chance is there for an informed voting public if there is no improvement? The present adult population needs to be reached now because they ar setting the agenda for future ones. Dr. Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue WA 98007 425-641-2467 wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/101-140homepage.html --------- > From: Donald Rosenthal > Reply To: Conferences on Chemistry Research and Education > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 1998 5:23 AM > To: CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU > Subject: Paper 1 - DR: Chemistry and Science Understanding by > Adults > > To: Sylvia Ware > > One precept of the Division's mission statement is: > "To enhance the public understanding of chemistry" > > In your article you mention "science and technology literacy for all", > ". . relevance of chemistry to their lives, prepare them to become > future > decision-makers on a variety of societal issues involving chemistry . > ." > Most of the programs described attempt to prepare future adults for > decision making, and science and technology literacy. > > What about today's adults and decision makers? > Has the ACS decided it is not worthwhile or feasible to work with > them? > > The audiotapes I mentioned in a previous question were an attempt to > provide chemical and scientific information to the listening public. > Apparently, the program was not successful. There have been PBS > programs > - I remember the series the World of Chemistry a number of years ago. > > Donald Rosenthal > Department of Chemistry > Clarkson University > Potsdam NY 13699-5810 > ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU > [ Part 16: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:05:10 -0800 From: Walter Volland Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1Nonscience attitudes The fact that nonscience students "may" not be as prepared as we would like is just that a fact of life. It will do us very little good to sit back and plan to alter what is happening in our student's lives prior to coming to our classes. Our reach is not that great. I firmly believe we as educators need to be willing to motive and educate our chemistry students. We unfortunately will not be able to reform the rest of the system when we aren't in agreement about the "right" thing ourselves. I > ---------- > From: Richard O. Pendarvis > Reply To: Conferences on Chemistry Research and Education > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 1998 9:44 AM > To: CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU > Subject: ROP Re: GW: Paper #1 > > Reading all the arguments about whether people should learn this or > that > topic or concept gives me the impression that there is not much > agreement > about what we are trying to accomplish or how to go about it. > > If anything is going to change, we must get our act together first. > > The other significant problem in science education for non-majors is > the students themselves. From what I can determine from student > reactions, > they are apparently not accustomed to doing much in any of their > classes. > > Their reaction to the different climate in any of our courses is > predictable. > > Before there can be any improvement in the way non-majors science > courses > are taught, there must be some changes in the way other courses are > taught. > > I am only a humble chemistry instuctor. I cannot remedy poor to non > existant reading and writing skills, math anxiety, "test anxiety", > lack of > study skills, work ethic, or personal responsibility. > > /* Richard */ > > #include > - - ____ > | | _ | | Organic Chemistry > / \ |_| | | || CAI Programming > / \ | | / \ || Pizza > / \ / \ | | _||_ Star Trek > (_________) (_____) |______| _/____\_ Doberman Pinschers > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > | Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. 3001 W. College Road > | > | Associate Professor of Chemistry Ocala, FL 32608 > | > | Central Florida Community College EMAIL: afn02809@afn.org > | > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > [ Part 17: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:36:52 CST From: Anne T Sherren Subject: Re[2]: GW: Paper #1Nonscience I've been reading all the non-majors chemistry text discussions. I know that Chemistry in Context has many strengths and interesting applicaitons. I also attended one of the Workshops put on by the team of Authors. We have used this book with our majors as a supplement to other standard general chemistry texts. I'm writing to express surprise that no one has mentioned a 1997 book "Chemistry and Our World" by Gebelein. W. C. Brown is the publisher. I used this book with my non-majors chemistry course in the fall. I liked the conceptual thinking problems. One must always pick and choose what to include, but I felt that the text worked well for my students. Anne Sherren, North Central College, Naperville, ats@noctrl.edu [ Part 18: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:55:57 -0800 From: Bob Bruner Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 -- balancing equations I am forwarding this for another participant, as suggested below. Those who are replying "to the author" should reply to Dr DiPippo, whose address is in the following block. bob bruner ------- >Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:45:10 -0500 (EST) >From: Ascanio DiPippo >To: Bob Bruner >Cc: CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU >Subject: Re: GW: Paper #1 -- balancing equations > >Bob, please forward this to the list for me as there has been some mix up >in my transmissions. > 1. In general I agree with your comments. > 2. Often forgotten is the fact that the INDUSTRIAL chemical >equation can never balance. > > A + B + $ ----> C + more $$$ > >If thes equation were to balance, I and all other chemical companies >would be out of business. Who then would support the real chemical >research ? Chemistry is not only an intellectual exercise, it is a very >rweal aspect of our economy. I stress to my students both how to balance >and which equations better not balance. Many of my students are business >majors and they will remember this concept very well. > >Pacem in terris arque calcio. >Tschuess >Ciao > >Fr. Ascanio, C.H.S. > > > > >On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Bob Bruner wrote: > >> At 07:04 PM 1/21/98 -0600, Gabriela Weaver wrote: >> >>John Hogg wrote: >> >> I do not believe that teaching >> >> someone to balance redox reactions will help them if they turn out to be >> >> a lawyer, businessman, etc. >> > >> >This issue will come up again during the discussion of paper #2. However, I >> >think that the argument that someone will not use a specific skill in their >> >career gets used too loosely in order to dismiss the teaching of some basic >> >skills and manipulations. I firmly believe that my students will forget many >> >of the details that they learn in my class. However, I want them to remember >> >the *concepts*, the *underlying principles* and the *big picture*. To get to >> >these, sometimes the skills need to be learned and used. Balancing equations >> >is a good example of a skill that allows a student to build up an intuition >> >regarding the conservation of mass. And the conservation of mass concept is >> >something that I DO want them to remember. *Even* if they are a lawyer - in >> >fact, *especially* if they are a lawyer. >> >> >> >> This is a fascinating discussion. A couple of brief comments... >> >> When we talk of whether students "can" balance eqns, we need to make a >> distinction between simple and complex eqns. >> >> I find that nearly all students in intro and HS chem can balance an equation >> at the level of: Na + Cl2 --> NaCl. Further, they can 'explain' what they >> did: talk about the number of atoms of each element on each side, or maybe >> even show that with a little picture. The problem is that as the eqns get >> more complex, some students have trouble keeping track of all the pieces of >> the puzzle. >> >> I think it is important to understand the concept of a balanced eqn, and >> they should be able to balance simple eqns. But I see little benefit of >> pushing non-chemists to do ones that add little more than complexity, no new >> basic concepts. >> >> >> An analogy from outside chemistry. I am not very good at dealing with >> differential equations. (I wasn't very good way back then.) Yet I appreciate >> their usefulness. I am not intimidated by seeing them, and can even frame a >> problem in terms of a differential equation. Maybe I can solve it. More >> likely I will need to seek help. But i still know the value. >> >> >> Bob Bruner >> Contra Costa College, San Pablo, CA >> and UC Berkeley Extension >> > > [ Part 19: "Included Message" ] Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:07:57 -0800 From: Bob Bruner Subject: Re: TC-Paper#1-Response to Ramsey At 09:27 PM 1/21/98 -0800, Walt Volland wrote: >Hello, I agree with Tim about the "black box" method of solving >problems. People need to personally do some of the work to get a sense >of what is going on. > >I' concerned that he balancing equations idea is in itself a kind of >black box. The exercise with paper and pencil or computer simulation >are both abstractions. The true experience is tied to physically >measuring amounts and observing what happens. I want to add one more step to that... The "true conceptual understanding" comes when the student sees the relationship between that "physically measuring..." and writing a balanced equation. In intro chem we measure the formula of magnesium oxide. It is a good lab exercise (good techniques, "fun" to do, not particularly difficult), and can be done with various levels of explanations and expectations. But when we are done, the goal is to make the connection between the lab data and the symbols on paper 2 Mg(s) + O2(g) --> 2 MgO(s). I almost wonder whether we should spend much more time analyzing one such example in detail, from various perspectives, to make sure that the central concept comes thru. There seems to be a tendency of students to have a disconnect between "class" and "lab". (My pet peeve... The question "Will lab be covered on the test?") I have often responded to a student who asks how they are supposed to know something, by reminding them that they saw it in the lab. There is some reluctance that this is valid evidence. It is a challenge for us to bridge that gap. Bon Bruner Contra Costa College, San Pablo, CA and UC Berkeley Extension Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:49:45 EST From: SACROMWARE Subject: Various Naturally, I have been following the discussions about CiC with a great deal of interest. ACS does seem to have contributed to, in my view, a very healthy debate about how and what to teach non-science majors. I am not at all alarmed that there are divergent opinions here -- not all students are alike, and neither are all faculty. No one book can satisfy all needs -- and I am very suspicious of those who expect this. I would like to make two brief points: 1) you teach the students you have, not the one's you wish you had 2) transmission of knowledge is an ineffective way of promoting understanding, knowledge must be constructed by all students for meaningful understanding and retention 3) The data we have indicate that most students do enjoy CiC (repeat sales are very healthy indeed -- we will soon be the market leader) 4) If balancing equations are REALLY that important to you, you can certainly supplement the text -- it isn't intended to be presented in a dogmatic fashion or to substitute for your own values and understandings of what your students need 5) Chemophobia is a consequence of ignorance not of how to balance equations but of the nature of chemistry and the role it plays in our society. 6) We as a community are beginning to discuss what should the science majors know and be able to do in freshman chemistry (note the NSF systemic reform consortia for undergraduate chemistry and the new ACS text.) This is a discussion we should embrace not fear. We are in exciting times, even if they are unsettling. 7)We are currently beginning the third edition of Cic with Conrad Stanitski of the University of Central Arkansas as the chief editor. I would encourage all of you with suggestions and concerns about the book to contact him with the specifics. The second edition was better than the first, the third will, with your help, be better than the second. OTHER TOPICS On a completely different topic, to answer Don Rosenthal's comment on the science literacy of adults and decision-makers, the Education Division programs attempt to reach students before they become adults and decisionmakers (an easier task, although difficult, than reaching adults). The ACS Office of Legislative and Government Affairs, and the Dept. of Public Outreach attempt to reach the other audiences. The tapes of Man and Molecules are no longer published because the decision was made within ACS governance that they were not successful. Another reminder that unemployed chemists may attend ACS short courses free (lab courses on a space available basis only). Incidentally, although the continuing education programs are designated "self-sustaining" in fact they just about break even every year! Sylvia Ware