------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:55:28 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: Paper 8: ME - Excel versus ???? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The authors of Paper #8 make a good point in stressing that it is more efficient for students to learn one software package ... although I'm not sure that it really matters what software package underlies a simulation, IF it is well-written. A multifuctional spreadsheet like Excel does fill a number of needs, including simulations, statistical analysis, and data reduction for large data sets. I also used Excel as the basis for most of the work in an analytical chemistry class, but not for simulations (for which I used the O'Haver WingZ spreadsheet templates). My questions are both for the authors and for the participants in CHEMCONF97: 1 - Could you accomplish with MathCad the same functions as an Excel spreadsheet, particularly for handling large data sets? (I am not particularly MathCad literate) 2 - What will benefit students more: a working knowledge of MathCad or a working knowledge of Excel? From an analytical chemistry standpoint, I would say that a knowledge of Excel would be far more beneficial. What about from a physical chemistry or organic chemistry standpoint? 3 - On the other hand, a spreadsheet like Excel hides the calculations and makes it far more difficult for students to comprehend, while a program like MathCad presents the calculations in a straightforward and intuitive manner. So, isn't it better for a learning standpoint for students to use Mathcad? One might also argue that being forced to enter equations into a spreadsheet makes the students really think and understand the process, rather than just copying and entering an equation as one does in MathCad. 4 - Finally, to repeat my musings in the first paragraph, does it really matter what program underlies a simulation ... at least from a student standpoint? ME Mike Epstein Research Chemist, Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology Gaithersburg, Maryland 20899 USA [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html ======================================================== "From tomorrow on, I shall be sad - from tomorrow on! Not today; no! Today I will be glad. And every day, no matter how bitter it be, I will say: From tomorrow on, I shall be sad, not today!" Motele - Theresienstadt ======================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:12:32 -0500 From: "Bondeson, Steve" Subject: Paper 8-SRB: Too much info? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Two questions concerning spreadsheets in general: Excel can generate huge amounts of "information" in a hurry and students may think that merely producing fifty Van der Waal isotherms, for instance, gives them an understanding of what's happening in the fluid. What do you do to insure that students are critically analyzing the output and coming to some coherent model of nature based on the output? Secondly, students often assign infallibility to computers and don't stop to wonder about the correctness of output. What do you do to help them become "healthy skeptics" of the computer generated information? Professor Stephen R. Bondeson (715) 346-3714 (Voice) Department of Chemistry (715) 346-2640 (FAX) University of Wisconsin-SP sbondeso@uwsp.edu Stevens Point, WI 54481 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:19:40 -0700 From: "Alexey A. Kubasov" Subject: Re: Mike Epstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is my answers to Mike Epstein. "1 - Could you accomplish with MathCad the same functions as an Excel spreadsheet, particularly for handling large data sets? (I am not particularly MathCad literate)" My experience is - Excel is more convenient for teaching than MathCad: It is not necessary to spend much time for preparation to use it, It makes possible to see more information on one sheet and to use some sheets simultaneously, It permits to handle graphs easier and to rotate the 3D picture. Besides this the teacher may write theory on separate sheet and place the problem's answer on hidden sheet. "2 - What will benefit students more: a working knowledge of MathCad or a working knowledge of Excel? From an analytical chemistry standpoint, I would say that a knowledge of Excel would be far more beneficial. What about from a physical chemistry or organic chemistry standpoint?" I think that MathCad is rather scientific tool. It has more matematical abilities than Excel but along teaching Physical Chemistry we must remember that PC is auxiliary means. We may solve practically any problem form Physical Chemistry using Excel. "3 - On the other hand, a spreadsheet like Excel hides the calculations and makes it far more difficult for students to comprehend, while a program like MathCad presents the calculations in a straightforward and intuitive manner. So, isn't it better for a learning standpoint for students to use Mathcad? One might also argue that being forced to enter equations into a spreadsheet makes the students really think and understand the process, rather than just copying and entering an equation as one does in MathCad." I do not quite agree that Excel hides the calculations. Entering the formula we do operations very near to Mathcad. It is possible to do calculations of parts of large formula in separate columns and see the intermediate results on graph. "4 - Finally, to repeat my musings in the first paragraph, does it really matter what program underlies a simulation ... at least from a student standpoint?" I suppose that it does not matter for students. The choice of program depends on teaching advantage: easiness, power, clear representation of calculation's result and teacher taste of course. A.Kubasov ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:20:33 -0700 From: "Alexey A. Kubasov" Subject: Re: to prof.S.R. Bondeson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bondeson, Steve wrote: > Two questions concerning spreadsheets in general: > Excel can generate huge amounts of "information" in a hurry and students > may think that merely producing fifty Van der Waal isotherms, for > instance, gives them an understanding of what's happening in the fluid. > What do you do to insure that students are critically analyzing the > output and coming to some coherent model of nature based on the output? Every invention of humanity may be good or harm. Very often it depends on who and how uses it. I suppose that the main goal of teaching Physical Chemistry is that students learn to think. How use Spreadsheets depends on teacher. There are many ways: to pay more attention on number or curve, direct or indirect problem, the influence of changing one or more parameters of equation on result and so on. Everything depends on teacher and the level of students with them he is working. > Secondly, students often assign infallibility to computers and don't > stop to wonder about the correctness of output. What do you do to help > them become "healthy skeptics" of the computer generated information? Usually I ask to estimate without exact calculations the number or the shape of curve which students ought to receive after solving problem or task on PC. A.Kubasov ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:59:05 +0000 From: Patricia Ann Mabrouk Subject: paper 8, P.A.M., graphing calculators and MATHCAD/Mathematica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I really enjoyed reading this particular paper and I commend the author on his selection of problems. These are topics that clearly benefit from a graphical examination. My question concerns the selection and identification of EXCEL as the "universal" program. I am still surprised to find that some of my students at Northeastern University in Boston have never used a spreadsheet before. I firmly believe that spreadsheets are valuable tools which my students will ultimately need to learn to use. However, there are a number of other programs such as MathCad and Mathematica that perform similar functions yet in a more intuitive (arguable) way. In addition, as I have discovered this past year, graphing calculators such as those of TI and HP are becoming increasingly commonplace and offer similar capabilities. Thus, I wonder if you have considered any of the above tools. I am particularly intrigued with the graphing calculators as they offer the opportunity to explore these concepts quite literally in the classroom since data and programs can be shared via a cable which comes with the calculator and since the instructor can guide the students via a viewscreen (overhead projector-based screen). Secondly, how have you handled students who have not had previous experience with EXCEL and spreadsheets? I would find it helpful to know how large your class is, whether you have TA support or not, and what facilities (computer lab? how many computers?) are available for students to use in completing the assignments ? Thanks! Pam :) Mabrouk pmabrouk@lynx.neu.edu Department of Chemistry Northeastern University Boston, MA 02115 Prof. Patricia Ann Mabrouk Department of Chemistry 111 Hurtig Hall Northeastern University Boston, MA 02115 617-373-2845 fax: 617-373-8795 pmabrouk@lynx.neu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:14:12 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: paper 8, P.A.M., graphing calculators and MATHCAD/Mathematica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I really enjoyed reading this particular paper and I commend the >author on his selection of problems. These are topics that clearly >benefit from a graphical examination. >My question concerns the selection and identification of EXCEL as the >"universal" program. I am still surprised to find that some of my students >at Northeastern University in Boston have never used a spreadsheet >before. I firmly believe that spreadsheets are valuable tools which >my students will ultimately need to learn to use. However, there are >a number of other programs such as MathCad and Mathematica that >perform similar functions yet in a more intuitive (arguable) way. In >addition, as I have discovered this past year, graphing calculators >such as those of TI and HP are becoming increasingly commonplace and >offer similar capabilities. Thus, I wonder if you have considered >any of the above tools. I am particularly intrigued with the >graphing calculators as they offer the opportunity to explore these >concepts quite literally in the classroom since data and programs can >be shared via a cable which comes with the calculator and since the >instructor can guide the students via a viewscreen (overhead >projector-based screen). >Pam :) Mabrouk We have had this discussion extensively in our department -- the odds are high that students have access to spreadsheets on their own computers, or will in virtually every workplace (emplyer feedback) but not to fairly expensive programs such as MathCad, Mathematica etc. Use of spreadsheets are considered a must by most employers --- This was a skill identified by the president of a major corporation that all students should use in selling themselves to prospective employers irrespective of their degree --- his point being thast the nature of the degree or particular courses taken was less important than the various writing, presenting, analytical, calculating skills etc. that a student has mastered. Thus, though we use specific Chemical and Computational and statistical packages at various levels in our courses, we are trying especially for the second year courses to use Excel for graphing and calculating even though there may be better scientific graphing packages, mathematical or statistical packages etc. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Adjunct Professor of Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (905) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (905) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca http://chemiris.labs.brocku.ca/~chemweb/faculty/miller/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:47:46 EDT From: Terrell Wilson Subject: Paper 8 - RTW: Spreadsheets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I have not been able to view the spreadsheets in this paper. Should this be possible? After retrieving the paper from the US address and clicking on the spreadsheet links, I got a couple of rows of small empty boxes and a few other squiggles instead of the spreadsheet. Trying the same thing with the European address gave me a message saying I needed a special viewer, and trying to download that eventually gave a server error message. Am I just having software problems on my end, am I doing something wrong, or am I trying to do something which can't be done? Did anyone else have problems with this? Sincerely, Terrell Wilson Department of Chemistry Email: RTWILSON@VMI.EDU Virginia Military Institute Phone: 540/464-7423 Lexington, VA 24450 Fax: 540/464-7261 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:55:55 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: ME: paper 8, Excel, Mathcad and student learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I want to second these important comments ... which are precisely why I had analytical chemistry students using Excel as an electronic notebook, for calculations, graphing, and statistical analysis. However, since then (and as a result of discussions resulting from CHEMCONF97), I have had some second thoughts about using *only* Excel ... because spreadsheets are not as visually intuitive as programs like Mathcad. If I were to do analytical again, I would still use Excel as the electronic notebook, but I would also use Mathcad sheets for instructional and review material. With the small class sizes I have had to deal with (4 to 9), this would be relatively easy to implement. In any event, it seems that programs like Mathcad and Excel are converging, with each slowly taking on characteristics of the other ... and data is now easily exchanged between the two. A question was also asked about students who have no spreadsheet experience. Of course, if simulations are being used, no intimate knowledge of the spreadsheet is needed. However, such knowledge was required for use as an electronic notebook. Therefore, the first analytical experiment given the students was a step-by-step introduction to calculations and statistical analysis using Excel, in which they rolled four dice (3 conventional and one loaded) and used the results to determine which of the dice was loaded. This actually ended up far more complex than it sounds, since they had to do a number of statistical tests and try to determine not only which die was loaded, but also how it was loaded (i.e., which sides came up more often and why). It was quite interesting. There was also an extra credit part where students were given the James Randi Million Dollar Psychic challenge and could test a friend for ESP (sorry ... couldn't resist) by having them influence the rolls of the dice. This provided a little extra incentive for them to learn to use the spreadsheet on their own. Then, as the semester went on, I became less specific about how they should use the spreadsheet in their standard quantitative analysis experiments (balances, gravimetry, titrations, absorption spectrophotometry, etc. with a heavy emphasis on error propagation and analysis) ... expecting them to use some innovation and learn on their own. Some did and some needed a signficant amount of personal instruction ... which I could do with the small class sizes. Mike Epstein >The odds are >high that students have access to spreadsheets on their own computers, or >will in virtually every workplace (emplyer feedback) but not to fairly >expensive programs such as MathCad, Mathematica etc. Use of spreadsheets >are considered a must by most employers --- This was a skill identified >by the president of a major corporation that all students should use in >selling themselves to prospective employers irrespective of their degree >--- his point being thast the nature of the degree or particular courses >taken was less important than the various writing, presenting, analytical, >calculating skills etc. that a student has mastered. > >Thus, though we use specific Chemical and Computational and statistical >packages at various levels in our courses, we are trying especially for the >second year courses to use Excel for graphing and calculating even though >there may be better scientific graphing packages, mathematical or >statistical packages etc. > Mike Epstein Research Chemist, Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology Gaithersburg, Maryland 20899 USA [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html ======================================================== "Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine" ======================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:09:58 -0400 From: Leon Combs Chemistry Subject: Re: Paper 8 - RTW: Spreadsheets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was able to download the viewer and then I got an explanation sheet from the authors to the students, but no spreadsheets. At 10:47 AM 7/9/97 EDT, you wrote: >I have not been able to view the spreadsheets in this paper. Should this be >possible? After retrieving the paper from the US address and clicking on the >spreadsheet links, I got a couple of rows of small empty boxes and a few >other squiggles instead of the spreadsheet. Trying the same thing with the >European address gave me a message saying I needed a special viewer, and >trying to download that eventually gave a server error message. Am I just >having software problems on my end, am I doing something wrong, or am I >trying to do something which can't be done? Did anyone else have problems >with this? > >Sincerely, >Terrell Wilson >Department of Chemistry Email: RTWILSON@VMI.EDU >Virginia Military Institute Phone: 540/464-7423 >Lexington, VA 24450 Fax: 540/464-7261 > > Leon L. Combs, Ph.D. Tel: 770-423-6159 Professor and Chair, Dept. Chemistry FAX: 770-423-6744 Kennesaw State University e-mail: lcombs@ksumail.kennesaw.edu 1000 Chastain Road http://science.kennesaw.edu/~lcombs Kennesaw, GA 30144-5591 CARPE DIEM ---- CORUM DEO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:47:29 -0500 From: "Bondeson, Steve" Subject: Paper 8--SRB: Excel AND Mathematica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Paper 8 nicely demonstrates the variety of things Excel can do and there is no question, really, of how important it is these days to be able to use spreadsheets. I've used Excel and Mathematica in tandem for several years in physical chemistry (lecture and lab) and think the students come out ahead by knowing and using both. Excel has a certain brute force approach to calculations that students can quickly appreciate and use. And it is particularly useful in organizing data. Mathematica gives students more flexibility, now looks very friendly (Version 3.0 is a big improvement in terms of its interface), and allows a bit of finesse in solving problems. The algebraic software shines most when solving systems of differential equations (matrix algebra) or complex equations and in doing calculus. Graphic capabilities are also very nice. Students may not use Mathematica in their jobs later, but it can really help them in developing an understanding of the material in physical chemistry. Our students should have both types of programs in their intellectual tool boxes. Professor Stephen R. Bondeson (715) 346-3714 (Voice) Department of Chemistry (715) 346-2640 (FAX) University of Wisconsin-SP sbondeso@uwsp.edu Stevens Point, WI 54481 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:03:22 -0400 From: Lutfur Khundkar Subject: Re: paper 8, JMM graphing calculators and MATHCAD/Mathematica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack Martin Miller wrote: > We have had this discussion extensively in our department -- the odds are > high that students have access to spreadsheets on their own computers, or > will in virtually every workplace (emplyer feedback) I like the idea of choosing a tool (spreadsheet, EXCEL) that is widely used in the workplace for use in the classroom as well. My experience with teaching the junior level Physical chemistry labs at Northeastern University has been that given their choice of data analysis software (custom programs, any reliable commercial spreadsheet or program of their choice), most (>90%) students opt to use EXCEL. We are fortunate to have a campus-wide site license for EXCEL. Nonetheless I find that students generally use their personal copy. > Thus, though we use specific Chemical and Computational and statistical > packages at various levels in our courses, we are trying especially for the > second year courses to use Excel for graphing and calculating even though > there may be better scientific graphing packages, mathematical or > statistical packages etc. > The advantage of introducing students to EXCEL early can be extended by using programs with functionality more suitable for the advanced courses which offer dynamic data exchange (DDE). I am a long time MATLAB user and one of its fans. Matlab's Student edition comes with the Maple toolbox for symbolic manipulation, which in principle gives it the same functionality as Mathcad. Mathworks (the company responsible for Matlab) also sells an EXCEL link toolbox which allows one to couple the power of Matlab to the graphical capabilities of EXCEL. Although I am not familiar with MathCad, I suspect that DDE is already built-in or will be included in it in the near future. > Use of spreadsheets > are considered a must by most employers --- This was a skill identified > by the president of a major corporation that all students should use in > selling themselves to prospective employers irrespective of their degree > --- his point being that the nature of the degree or particular courses > taken was less important than the various writing, presenting, analytical, > calculating skills etc. that a student has mastered. > I have often wondered how many campuses (in particular chemistry departments) have responded to the changing boundaries of the workplace by explicitly making basic computer literacy a requirement for a Bachelor's degree. I would especially like to hear your opinions/experiences. Lutfur Khundkar Northeastern University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:21:09 -0500 From: George Long Subject: Re: GRL: paper 8, Excel, Mathcad and student learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >>Thus, though we use specific Chemical and Computational and statistical >>packages at various levels in our courses, we are trying especially for the >>second year courses to use Excel for graphing and calculating even though >>there may be better scientific graphing packages, mathematical or >>statistical packages etc. >> While its true that most students have access to a spreadsheet, since it is conveniently packaged with most word processing software, such as MS office, or Perfect Office, for one low (relatively ) price, I wonder whether this is what should be driving our choice of software ? Certainly specific graphing packages work better for graphing and analyzing scientific data, and why should we pay for all the functions that do interests, amortization, Pie Charts and other calculations at the expense of difficulty in doing more typical scientific analysis? Is the view of the CEO that students should be able to use spreadsheets, or that students should be able to use computers to analyze data ? Given that the trend in software is to keep adding more stuff to the programs, aren't we approaching a point where there may be one generic program that will do everything, but none of it very conveniently ? Am I the only one that feels at the mercy of the big software companies ?? **************************************************************************** George R Long, Ph.D. Department of Chemistry, Indiana University of Pennsylvania Indiana, PA 15705 grlong@grove.iup.edu, http://www.iup.edu/~grlong/ Technology has made the world a neighborhood, now it is up to us to make it a brotherhood - Dr. M.L. King **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:48:35 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: Paper 8: ME: Excel, Mathcad and student learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Is the view of the CEO that students should be >able to use spreadsheets, or that students should be able to use computers >to analyze data ? Large corporations (and large government laboratories like mine) standardize on specific platforms and programs for administrative computing. As far as science goes, the individual scientists (at least here) can use what they wish. However, Excel has turned out to be the best overall program for both administrative activities and scientific number crunching (at least in the analytical area). If the scientists wish to be compatible with secretarial help (and conversion programs are NEVER 100% accurate) and division-level high quality output devices (i.e., color printers), they will use the recommended programs. So, if I have a choice between two students who want to work here as a summer employee, and one knows Excel and the other knows Mathcad, guess which one I will choose (everything else being equal). >Given that the trend in software is to keep adding more stuff to the >programs, aren't we approaching a point where there may be one generic >program that will do everything, but none of it very conveniently ? Am I >the only one that feels at the mercy of the big software companies ?? The big software companies tend to produce the most bug free and comprehensive programs. I rarely use shareware anymore, except in the graphics area. The fact is that I want students that I teach to (a) understand the material *and* (b) be well-prepared for a career ... particularly the latter if they aren't going on to graduate school. They are best prepared by using what most of the potential employers are using. Mike Epstein Mike Epstein Research Chemist, Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology Gaithersburg, Maryland 20899 USA [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html ======================================================== "Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine" ======================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:14:38 -0500 From: "Bondeson, Steve" Subject: Re: Paper 8: ME: Excel, Mathcad and student learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike Epstein wrote: >They are best prepared by using what most of the potential employers are >using. I must (mildly) disagree with this statement. Learning a technique or program or convention is easy. What counts is the base level understanding a student has of the concepts: the broad strokes and fine details of the science. Will any software provide that? Of course not--it's the instructor's conscientious prodding the students to interpret, critique, understand, and wrestle with the output of the programs that's important. To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes: Computer output is a useless thing until it's interpreted! Were I an employer, an applicant's ability to use Excel, MathCad, Mathematica, et al., would be mostly immaterial--they could learn in a hurry as needed. Do they know enough science to choose the right tools is what I'd want to know. We only use these tools to figure out how nature operates! >>>Steve<<< Professor Stephen R. Bondeson (715) 346-3714 (Voice) Department of Chemistry (715) 346-2640 (FAX) University of Wisconsin-SP sbondeso@uwsp.edu Stevens Point, WI 54481 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:23:59 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: GRL: paper 8, Excel, Mathcad and student learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>George R Longwrote: >While its true that most students have access to a spreadsheet, since it is >conveniently packaged with most word processing software, such as MS office, >or Perfect Office, for one low (relatively ) price, I wonder whether this >is what should be driving our choice of software ? It is if you have big classes, small numbers of licenses (3 or 10) for the sophisticated packages (only available in restricted labs) and ~300+ copies of excel available on Macs and PCs in University wide open use labs -- also a package that is both Mac and Windows compatible is an advantage since some students will have one or the other - though the fraction with Macs is declining (campus machines are 50/50). >Certainly specific >graphing packages work better for graphing and analyzing scientific data, >and why should we pay for all the functions that do interests, amortization, >Pie Charts and other calculations at the expense of difficulty in doing more >typical scientific analysis? Is the view of the CEO that students should be >able to use spreadsheets, yes > or that students should be able to use computers >to analyze data ? also yes > >Given that the trend in software is to keep adding more stuff to the >programs, aren't we approaching a point where there may be one generic >program that will do everything, but none of it very conveniently ? Am I >the only one that feels at the mercy of the big software companies ?? I feel like you do about Microsoft, and don't like Excel either, and don't use it very often for my research but I can afford a selection of better easier to use stuff -- my students are likely to have Excel at home and will use it rather than better stuff they have to stand in line for. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Adjunct Professor of Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (905) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (905) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca http://chemiris.labs.brocku.ca/~chemweb/faculty/miller/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:24:58 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: paper 8, JMM computer literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I have often wondered how many campuses (in particular chemistry >departments) have responded to the changing boundaries of the workplace >by explicitly making basic computer literacy a requirement for a >Bachelor's degree. I would especially like to hear your >opinions/experiences. > > >Lutfur Khundkar >Northeastern University We have a university policy that our grads by the year 2001 shall be "computer literate as applicable to their discipline" -- on investigating how close to this goal we are since those students are entering now, a campus wide survey showed that in most disciplines we were close to this goal now -- Departments vary between having specific computing course requirements vs having computing components of their own courses. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Adjunct Professor of Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (905) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (905) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca http://chemiris.labs.brocku.ca/~chemweb/faculty/miller/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:10:34 -0500 From: Mike Epstein Subject: Re: Paper 8: ME: Excel, Mathcad and student learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I absolutely agree with Stephen. My statement was a generality and intended to mean that students were better off knowing than not knowing. In my experience with job interviews, and I've been on both ends of the stick a number of times, if the interviewee can strike a common cord with the interviewer, he or she is at a BIG advantage. That common cord can easily be (and has been in my case) experience in the use of a computer program ... and will then lead to further discussion in which the interviewee can present expertise in the science. Of course, the base level understanding is important, which is why I felt that incorporation of a Mathcad (or similar) program into the my analytical chemistry curriculum would also be helpful in addition to the use of Excel. I must also disagree (mildly) with Stephen's statement that software will not provide the broad strokes and fine details of the science. The software is an electronic blackboard that allows the instructor to educate at times other than lecture period. When written properly and used with proper motivational tools, it will allow the student to understand and wrestle with the concepts. But it does come down to the individual instructor in the end ... whether they use a real or virtual blackboard. I would never question that! Mike Epstein Research Chemist, Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology Gaithersburg, Maryland 20899 USA [Opinions expressed are mine ... not necessarily theirs] PHONE: (301) 975-4114 FAX: (301) 869-0413 Michael.Epstein@nist.gov WWW Home Page: http://esther.la.asu.edu/sas/epstein/epstein.html ======================================================== "Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine" ======================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:11:06 +0400 From: kubasov Subject: Re: paper 8, P.A.M., graphing calculators and MATHCAD/Mathematica Reply to Patricia Ann Mabrouk First of all thank you for the interest to our paper. I do not want to declare that EXCEL is the best one. I may say from my experience in teaching physical chemistry that it is rather universal because I failed to use it only in one case - to plot concentrations of intermediates in Lotka - Volterra reactions on 3D graph. It is rather easy to teach students to use it - usually they work with it after one or two lessons without troubles. Besides this EXCEL is a part of Microsoft office and many people have it. Therefore it is the "best" for me. My class consist of 8-10 students and we use Pentium-100 and local net. Alexei A.Kubasov ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:25:29 -0400 From: "Dr. Edward W. Vitz" Subject: Re: ME: paper 8, Excel, Mathcad and student learning Regarding the generality of spreadsheets: I think that the current paper describes a valuable approach, based on our experience in a slightly different context, described below (if you'd like to skip this lengthy description of our system, suffice it to say that we have success with spreadsheet use in all our _first year_ chemistry laboratories!) At Kutztown University, we have been using spreadsheets (first Lotus 1-2-3 and now Excel) for _data acquisition_ as well as data reduction in our first year General Chemistry laboratory for over 7 years. We have written Lotus drivers and Windows DLLs to manage data acquisition from sensors for pH, conductivity, temperature, mass, pressure, Geiger counts, optical absorbance, and to control stepper motors and even 120 VAC. Six articles describing the "LIMSport" system have appeared in J. Chem. Educ. since 1992. Microsoft is giving us fits with trying to keep up with the drastic changes in driver structure required by revisions of Windows. Spreadsheets do seem to raise the level of student appreciation for statistical and graphical methods, and when introduced in the freshman year, provide a foundation for the use of more advanced spreadsheet applications (like the ones in this paper) as well as for the use of more specialized software in upper level courses. A laboratory manual introduces spreadsheet functions, commands and general techniques as well as introductory material for typical general chemistry laboratory experiments. NSF has provided funding for development of the Excel version (see http://cos.gdb.org for a description under my name) which we will implement fully this year. Spreadsheets can encourage understanding at a basic level; for example Excel's Solver provides a "manual" method of setting up curve fitting and actually watching a calculated curve approach the curve representing the data as fitting parameters are varied. I really feel strongly that they provide much more transferrable knowledge than the "calculator based laboratories" that are coming in vogue, especially since the functionality of PCs make them a better buy (calculators can't connect to the WEB, do word processing or molecular modeling...). Students react positively. We are a typical state university with students who are not advanced computer users by any means when they arrive, but there is little complaint about "having to learn computers as well as chemistry" in our laboratory. As a matter of fact, three hour periods on a computer with faculty mentors present (our lab has a 486/66 for each pair of students) is an ideal way to learn. The lab is also used by students for simulations, CAI, and molecular modeling. In this application, spreadsheets appear to be ideal. Results of a more rigorous curriculum assessment (part of the NSF program) will be reported in about a year. Best, Ed ______________________________________________________________________________ Dr. Ed Vitz vitz@kutztown.edu Kutztown University 610-683.4443 Kutztown, PA 19530 FAX 610-683-1352 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:26:45 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 8 - DR: Seminars and the MSU Curriculum To: The Authors of Paper 8 I wonder if you can tell us how the "26 seminars and 6 tests . . taught within two semesters" fit in to the curriculum at Moscow State University. 1. What chemistry courses have students taken before taking the seminars? 2. You mentioned that the class consists of 8 to 10 students. Are these seminars electives which some but not all students take? Do all chemistry majors have some familiarity with Excel and/or other software? 3. What is the format of the seminars? What happens in the seminar? What happens outside the seminar? Do the students work on Excel outside class or in class? Do they work by themselves, in pairs or in groups? Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University Potsdam, NY ROSEN1@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:03:30 -0400 From: George Shalhoub Subject: Recall: Paper 8 - GMS: Excel and Mathcad George Shalhoub would like to recall the message, "Paper 8 - GMS: Excel and Mathcad". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:07:10 -0400 From: George Shalhoub Subject: Paper 8 - GMS: Excel and Mathcad I agree with the comments posted by Mike epstein. I have used Excel and Mathcad in physical chemistry for the past few years and I can share some of my experiences here at LaSalle. Most students know spreadsheet basics but few were proficient in the "scientific"components such as data fitting and the use of Excel functions. I provide a short (2 -3 hour) spreadsheet review for my students to make them aware of the power of these programs. If I have a student with no prior knowledge, I can give them extra tutoring to get up to speed. Most students are quick to learn the basics. Spreadsheets are used mainly for lab calculations and simple, repetitive computations such as van der Waals isotherms. For more advanced calculations, I teach Mathcad. I do not cover all aspects, but in two sessions of 2-3 hours, most of my students become familiar with the basics of the program. I give them a synopsis of some Mathcad basics and have them work through some problems. I constantly use Mathcad throughout the semester. Homework assignments, lab calculations, and exams are alll done with Mathcad. I have generated a number of Mathcad simulations that the students can access. These simulations are an integral part of the learning experience. I have found that this approach makes for a more active learning environment and also allows students to focus more on the interpretation of physical chemistry rather than focus on the mathematics. George ______________________________ George Shalhoub LaSalle University Shalhoub@lasalle.edu Lasers Pump You Up! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:53:19 -0500 From: Theresa Julia Zielinski Subject: tjz, paper 8, Mathcad and excell If I may jump in to the discussion, Mathcad is a relatively inexpensive software. The student version costs about as much as a good physical chemistry book. It is powerful enough for students to use to learn about physical chemistry in an interactive mode. The advantage of Mathcad is that the text and math are written on the same page and that this page appears as it would if a student or instructor were using a pen and paper. It becomes ideal for preparing lab reports. The full version is less than $150 and this is an attractive price when coupled to the way the program works. As others have stated earlier students need multiple computer skills. A spreadsheet is very important and once you learn one you can quickly learn another. Symbolic equation software skills may not be so transferable. As was mentioned by others the specific software is less important than using it to plumb the subject by constructing sheets that lead to learning concepts. Computers at least give us the power to effectively transfer learning interactively to the student. Software makes it possible as you may all agree to deal with data and complexities that were not possible before for students. We can get to the science and use real data to do so without monumental amounts of time to process the data. It is a great time to be involved in teaching, learning, and doing science. Cheers Theresa PS we use Excel at NU along with Mathcad. Excel may in some ways be easier for the students. Theresa Julia Zielinski Professor of Chemistry, Niagara University Visiting Professor of Chemistry, U. Wisconsin - Madison -------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:08:54 +0400 From: kubasov Subject: Re: Paper 8 - DR: Seminars and the MSU Curriculum ---------- Questions from Donald Rosenthal > > To: The Authors of Paper 8 > > I wonder if you can tell us how the "26 seminars and 6 tests . . taught within > two semesters" fit in to the curriculum at Moscow State University. > > 1. What chemistry courses have students taken before taking the seminars? > Physical Chemistry begins on 3rd course at Faculty of Chemistry Moscow State University. Students studied Inorganic, Analytical and Organic Chemistry before this. Besides there are courses on Physics and Mathematics. The main parts of Physical Chemistry are - Classic, Statistical and Nonlinear Thermodynamics (first semester), Phenomenological and Theoretical Chemical Kinetics and Catalysis as well as Electrochemistry (second semester). At the same time students study some courses on Molecular and Matter Structure. Academic year starts at the 1 of September until to the end of December (1st semester). The second one lasts from the 15 of February until the end of May. > 2. You mentioned that the class consists of 8 to 10 students. > Are these seminars electives which some but not all students take? > Do all chemistry majors have some familiarity with Excel and/or other > software? > Physical Chemistry course consists from lectures (two in every week), seminars and practical works (one in every week for each). We have 12 groups of students (about twenty students each) and two teachers work with every group. All students of our faculty ought to study Physical Chemistry but we have special "physico-chemical" group for which this course is more advanced. I am working with this group. Every student of our faculty studies computers at the first course. They are taught to use some languages (FORTRAN, Basic, Pascal) and some program packets (Microsoft Office for example). > 3. What is the format of the seminars? What happens in the seminar? > What happens outside the seminar? Do the students work on Excel > outside class or in class? Do they work by themselves, in pairs or > in groups? > Each seminar lasts two academic hours (two times for 45 min). Students and teacher discuss some theoretical problems and students ought to solve some problems connected with the discussed theory after that. At the end they receive some problems for homework. Usually in every semester we have three "control work" on part of course studied before. Many students have PC at own and besides this they may work in two PC classes that we have at faculty. Some students have rather excellent knowledge on PC and use Excel near for everything not only for doing home- and practical- work. They work on PC themselves in class but of coarse they discuss some problems with teacher and other students. But not all teachers at our faculty use PC in teaching chemistry. I try to answer at full length but I am ready to add anything that may be interesting for you and other collegues. Thank you Alexei A.Kubasov --------------------------------